Now THIS is going to get me to complain...BIG TIME!!

[Peekaboo]

So, I'm in a rural area local IGA store. I use my Rewards Visa to check out. Cashier asks for ID. Well, I *KNOW* it's not right, but I personally really don't mind showing ID. OK...so then she proceeds to COPY ALL of my personal info on the back of the transaction receipt!! Name, address, DOB, DL #, EVERYTHING!!! THEN asks for my phone number to boot!! I asked her WTF?!?!? Did she KNOW that was ID theft waiting to happen? What if they misplaced that receipt? She's just a kid, of course, and doing what she's told she says as she points to a handwritten sign that specifically states this is the store policy!!!

 

So the owner of the store is going to get an earful tomorrow, but who else should I write to? This is outrageous and I intend to make a HUGE stink over it.

 

[hurricanesfans27]

i would have asked for the manager right there. no way they get all that info from me.

[indentured]

i would have asked for the manager right there. no way they get all that info from me.

I'd have just left all the merchandise on the counter for them to restock and complained in the morning.

[Peekaboo]

i would have asked for the manager right there. no way they get all that info from me.

I'd have just left all the merchandise on the counter for them to restock and complained in the morning.

I DID ask for a manager, but there were none there (have to call them tomorrow).

The transaction was already complete, my card was charged, receipt printed, otherwise I would NOT have completed the order.

[indentured]

i would have asked for the manager right there. no way they get all that info from me.

I'd have just left all the merchandise on the counter for them to restock and complained in the morning.

I DID ask for a manager, but there were none there (have to call them tomorrow).

The transaction was already complete, my card was charged, receipt printed, otherwise I would NOT have completed the order.

They'd have had to reverse it if you didn't meet their requirements, no? Then they'd have had to eat the transaction fee and credit the transaction back. What were they going to do? Refuse to credit it back and refuse to let you leave with your groceries? It's one or the other. I'd still definitely report them, though, but I wouldn't shop there again unless they get compliant.

[eiui thelus]

Sorry, but there are no laws or even cc regulations to cover that.

Since you "don't mind" showing ID you declared that you don't mind any stranger having your personal info and doing as they please with it.

 

Even if the manager fires her, she still has all of your info and there's nothing you can do about it.

[Peekaboo]

Sorry, but there are no laws or even cc regulations to cover that.

Since you "don't mind" showing ID you declared that you don't mind any stranger having your personal info and doing as they please with it.

 

Even if the manager fires her, she still has all of your info and there's nothing you can do about it.

The manager isn't going to fire her because it is the store policy as stated earlier.

[Llwellyn]

Sorry, but there are no laws or even cc regulations to cover that.

 

Actually, that's very far from the truth. I'm not at work yet, so I'll update later, but I have a copy of our transaction manual and the do dictate what you are allowed to collect for the acceptance of the CC, and what is allowed to be stored on a sales draft. Writing it on the back counts... if it were stored separately from the receipts, to be used for some other purpose, it may be legal and acceptable, but it is most definitely NOT OK to write it on the back of the receipt.

 

Also, if the cashier wrote down his D/L number, there are some states that control who is allowed to record that and use it in the course of business. Some states are still using an SSN as a D/L number too, and there are federal laws that dictate you can no longer record that as ID information unless specifically allowed.

[Peekaboo]

Sorry, but there are no laws or even cc regulations to cover that.

Since you "don't mind" showing ID you declared that you don't mind any stranger having your personal info and doing as they please with it.

 

Even if the manager fires her, she still has all of your info and there's nothing you can do about it.

 

This type of dogma is why I can't follow the threads in this forum and had to ask the question about what to do to complain to the right people.

 

I have read a few threads here trying to understand the issue of showing ID or not, but they always seem to be plastered with dogma from one camp saying you have basically signed a contract with the Socialist Nazi party by allowing someone to look at the name on the ID and compare it to the name on the card...Then the other party saying this isn't so.

 

Well, honestly, I can't recall EVER reading in ANY of my cc agreements that showing someone your ID forfeits any of your rights.

 

So, please, if you do know that this is actually the case, please show me where in my card agreement it states I have "declared that I don't mind any stranger having my personal info and doing as they please with it".

 

The dogma does not help people understand what to do when something is seriously wrong with a merchant's policy.

 

If someone has ACTUAL ADVICE on what to do about this situation, I would really appreciate it. I really have no interest in the borderline religious debates.

[bh5814]

It's against the merchant agreement yes, but however I do not believe taking down that information breaks any laws since doing that with checks is perfectly fine in most places still.

[Uncle Leo]

Any update on the follow-up with the manager?

[Peekaboo]

Any update on the follow-up with the manager?

Management thinks they are protecting the store and the customers. They "had people complaining that their stolen cards were used at the store and the thieves were never asked for ID." So, they think this is a way to ensure they have the rightful owner using the cards

I do not have enough knowledge on this subject to intelligently debate them on this, which is why I was so frustrated reading here...I wasn't trying to be snitty, but I was looking for real information regarding my rights as a consumer on this issue. I just simply can't find any. Personally, I'm comfortable believing that CBers know what they are talking about, but when you have to make the case, you really need a basis...

I did thankfully receive information via PM (thanks again) on how to contact Visa and let them handle this. So that is what I am going to do.

Edited March 1, 2007 by Peekaboo

[TeeSharice]

it is against the law in MANY states ( and Im thinking there is a fed statute as well) that prevents a cashier from writign down any DL and SS info on the back of a check

 

In my state, they are only allowed to write "DL number verified" and/or last 4 of SS

[TeeSharice]

According to Cali law the cashier may write "VISA" on the back of the check to indicate she verfied the Visa as ID but cannot write the VIsa account number down however its gray in the area of DL.... says cashier can record the DL number but it doesnt say where.... can they record for their files or record it on back of check?

 

Cali law:

 

http://www.dca.ca.gov/legal/p-2.html

 

Payment by Check

 

1. Overview of the Law. This law1 applies to any person or business which accepts a check or other negotiable instrument as payment for goods or services sold or leased to a consumer at retail, for use by the consumer and not for resale. For convenience, this Legal Guide calls such a person or business a "retailer." The law limits the extent to which a retailer can rely on a credit card for any purpose, but it also provides important exceptions to accommodate the legitimate needs of check writers and retailers.

 

Nothing in this law requires a retailer to accept a check, whether or not a credit card is presented.

 

2. Prohibited Conduct. Except as in items 3 and 4, below, a retailer who receives a check as payment for goods or services cannot do any of the following:

 

Require the check writer to provide a credit card as a condition of accepting the check.

 

 

Require the check writer, as a condition of accepting the check, to authorize the merchant to charge the check writer's credit card account if the check bounces.

 

 

Record the number of a credit card in connection with any part of the transaction.

 

 

Contact the check writer's credit card issuer to determine if he or she has sufficient credit available to cover the amount of the check.

3. Allowable Conduct in Typical Purchase Situations. A retailer who receives a check in a typical retail purchase situation can do any of the following:

 

Require the production of a check guarantee card, even if the check guarantee card is also a credit card.

 

 

Require, verify and record the check writer's name, address and telephone number.

 

 

Require the check writer, as a condition of accepting the check, to produce "reasonable forms of positive identification" other than a credit card. This includes a driver's license or California identification card, or where neither of these is available, another form of photo identification. Presumably, the retailer may record the kind of identification and its number.

 

Request but not require the voluntary production of a credit card for identification or as an indication of credit standing, provided that:

-The only information that is recorded is the type of credit card (e.g., "Visa"), the name of the card issuer, and the date the card expires; and

 

-The retailer informs the customer, in either of the following ways, that displaying a credit card is not a requirement for check writing:

 

By posting a conspicuous and unobstructed notice stating, "Check Writing ID: credit card may be requested but not required for purchase," or

By training and requiring its sales clerks who request credit cards to inform all check writing customers that they are not required to display a credit card to write a check.

4. Special Situations. The law makes allowances for the following special situations:

 

Cash Back: A person or business may request the production of a credit card, or record the credit card number, if the check is given solely in exchange for cash (but not if it is given also as payment for goods or services).

 

 

Deposit: A person or business may request, receive or record a credit card number, in lieu of requiring a deposit to secure payment in the event of default, loss, damage, or other occurrence; for instance,

where --

 

A hotel or motel requires a credit card number to secure a room reservation, or

 

A tool rental agency requires a credit card number to secure the return of a rented item, or

 

A video rental shop requires a credit card number to secure return of rented tapes.

 

As Payment: A person or business may request or record a credit card number on a check which is accepted as a payment on that credit account.

[Sardo Neumspa]

So, I'm in a rural area local IGA store. I use my Rewards Visa to check out. Cashier asks for ID. Well, I *KNOW* it's not right, but I personally really don't mind showing ID. OK...so then she proceeds to COPY ALL of my personal info on the back of the transaction receipt!! Name, address, DOB, DL #, EVERYTHING!!! THEN asks for my phone number to boot!! I asked her WTF?!?!? Did she KNOW that was ID theft waiting to happen? What if they misplaced that receipt? She's just a kid, of course, and doing what she's told she says as she points to a handwritten sign that specifically states this is the store policy!!!

 

So the owner of the store is going to get an earful tomorrow, but who else should I write to? This is outrageous and I intend to make a HUGE stink over it.

 

 

I am searching as I thought I remembered coming across text that shows that it is against NC Law for them to do that.

 

Here are VISA's Merchant Rules, you can print out pages 28 and 29.

 

VISA Merchant Rules (PDF)

[Peekaboo]

Thanks!

Tee, can you tell me where you found that info? If I were to try and find the statute for NC, where would I look?

 

Merchants REGULARLY ask for ID here, and I've mentioned that it isn't correct procedure to do that, but they all think you're a thief or something for not wanting to show you are the owner of the card. It's not practical in real life situations to debate with a 17 year old cashier every time you conduct a transaction. They aren't going to give a hoot about Visa's merchant policy, either...it's just not realistic to stand there arguing, and I honestly just can't seem to gleen the specifics on that issue (especially not to make it worth the while to not just show them my name). Maybe it's because we're military and I'm just used to giving my ID when asked because it's asked for regularly?

 

THIS issue, OTOH, is absolutely over the top. This is a mom & pop deal, they just don't have a clue and really think they're doing everyone a favor.

 

 

ETA: BTW, not sure if I mistakenly implied she has my SS#, but nothing that was given to her included that. In fact, I quite often leave my DL in my car and only have my Military ID on me and will present that...that DOES have my SS# on it, but not address info.

Edited March 1, 2007 by Peekaboo

[thelowpriceleader]

Mastercard:

Sec. 9.11.2

http://www.mastercard.com/us/wce/PDF/12999...tire_Manual.pdf

[TeeSharice]

I did a google search... Im at work and in between issues... I will look for NC law in a bit

[Peekaboo]

From: http://www.ncleg.net/EnactedLegislation/St.../Article_2A.pdf

 

Article 2A.

Identity Theft Protection Act.

§ 75-60. Title.

This Article shall be known and may be cited as the "Identity Theft Protection Act".

(2005-414, s. 1.)

 

§ 75-64. Destruction of personal information records.

(a)

Any business that conducts business in North Carolina and any business that

maintains or otherwise possesses personal information of a resident of North Carolina

must take reasonable measures to protect against unauthorized access to or use of the

information in connection with or after its disposal.

(

The reasonable measures must include:

(1)

Implementing and monitoring compliance with policies and procedures

that require the burning, pulverizing, or shredding of papers containing

personal information so that information cannot be practicably read or

reconstructed.

(2)

Implementing and monitoring compliance with policies and procedures

that require the destruction or erasure of electronic media and other

nonpaper media containing personal information so that the information

cannot practicably be read or reconstructed.

(3)

Describing procedures relating to the adequate destruction or proper

disposal of personal records as official policy in the writings of the

business entity.

©

A business may, after due diligence, enter into a written contract with, and

monitor compliance by, another party engaged in the business of record destruction to

destroy personal information in a manner consistent with this section. Due diligence

should ordinarily include one or more of the following:

(1)

Reviewing an independent audit of the disposal business's operations or

its compliance with this statute or its equivalent.

(2)

Obtaining information about the disposal business from several

references or other reliable sources and requiring that the disposal

business be certified by a recognized trade association or similar third

party with a reputation for high standards of quality review.

(3)

Reviewing and evaluating the disposal business's information security

policies or procedures or taking other appropriate measures to determine

the competency and integrity of the disposal business.

(d)

A disposal business that conducts business in North Carolina or disposes of

personal information of residents of North Carolina must take all reasonable measures to

dispose of records containing personal information by implementing and monitoring

compliance with policies and procedures that protect against unauthorized access to or

use of personal information during or after the collection and transportation and disposing

of such information.

(e)

This section does not apply to any of the following: Page 10

 

NC General Statutes - Chapter 75 Article 2A

10

(1)

Any bank or financial institution that is subject to and in compliance

with the privacy and security provision of the Gramm Leach Bliley Act,

15 U.S.C. § 6801, et seq., as amended.

(2)

Any health insurer or health care facility that is subject to and in

compliance with the standards for privacy of individually identifiable

health information and the security standards for the protection of

electronic health information of the Health Insurance Portability and

Accountability Act of 1996.

(3)

Any consumer reporting agency that is subject to and in compliance

with the Federal Credit Reporting Act, 15 U.S.C. § 1681, et seq., as

amended.

(f)

A violation of this section is a violation of G.S. 75-1.1, but any damages

assessed against a business because of the acts or omissions of its nonmanagerial

employees shall not be trebled as provided in G.S. 75-16 unless the business was

negligent in the training, supervision, or monitoring of those employees. No private right

of action may be brought by an individual for a violation of this section unless such

individual is injured as a result of the violation. (2005-414, s. 1.)

 

That's the best I've got

[pryan67]

here's what I WOULD have done...

 

1. Refused ID...DEMANDED a manager or the owner...if they're not there, they can call them up at home and have them come in

 

2. Taken the receipt with my personal, PRIVATE information...refused to let them have it

 

3. Filed a complaint against the STORE (not the employee) with Visa/MC...the AG...FTC...and local police (for helping potential ID theft)

 

4. Written a scathing letter to the editor of the local paper, and gotten the local media involved as well, since this is ID theft waiting to happen

 

 

of course, if the manager said "ok, fine...take the receipt, we won't keep your info, I would only file the complaints with Visa/MC and write the local paper...so others are warned that they're setting you up for ID theft.

[Peekaboo]

pryan, what would you base the complaints to the police on? That's what I'm trying to find. I cannot find a single thing that states my rights are being violated as a consumer. Even the above statute is only if they fail to destroy the paper correctly and only is actionable by the consumer if I can prove I was harmed by their neglegence to do so.

[eiui thelus]

This is the problem; a case filed against TJ Max in OR or WA, I can't remember which, dealt with a person's phone # being used to harrass the plaintiff. The defendent got the plaintiffs phone # while standing behind them at the checkout. TJ Max is known for asking for people's phone #.

Listing your # in a phone book is covered by laws that don't allow people to abuse the use just because it's visible in a book.

However, the plaintiff freely gave away that private info in a public forum where there was no intent to keep it private and no laws cover that.

The judge ruled that the plaintiff freely gave it away and that TJ Max had no responibility to safeguard that info.

The plaintiff was free to sue the defendent directly, but since the defendent was in prison for another charge, it seemed a moot point.

They appealed and lost again as to this day there are no laws to enforce a company to safeguard info you freely give.

They defined the difference in when a company must safeguard personal info as when your info is compulsory.

Showing your ID is voluntary on your part as well as giving a store your phone # at checkout, therefore it will be deemed that the company is not responsible.

 

The clerk wrote your info on a receipt, not a check. There are no laws to cover receipts yet.

You would be free to sue an employee of the store if and when a crime has already been commited with your info, but not the store. Not until some laws are changed.

Complaining to Visa is a must. Since there are no laws covering receipts, if you can find the time to push this to the nth degree, it would be great if you can help push it to law. Safeguard more people than just yourself.

Edited March 1, 2007 by eiui thelus

[Uncle Leo]

This is the problem; a case filed against TJ Max in OR or WA, I can't remember which, dealt with a person's phone # being used to harrass the plaintiff. The defendent got the plaintiffs phone # while standing behind them at the checkout. TJ Max is known for asking for people's phone #.

Listing your # in a phone book is covered by laws that don't allow people to abuse the use just because it's visible in a book.

However, the plaintiff freely gave away that private info in a public forum where there was no intent to keep it private and no laws cover that.

The judge ruled that the plaintiff freely gave it away and that TJ Max had no responibility to safeguard that info.

The plaintiff was free to sue the defendent directly, but since the defendent was in prison for another charge, it seemed a moot point.

They appealed and lost again as to this day there are no laws to enforce a company to safeguard info you freely give.

They defined the difference in when a company must safeguard personal info as when your info is compulsory.

Showing your ID is voluntary on your part as well as giving a store your phone # at checkout, therefore it will be deemed that the company is not responsible.

 

The clerk wrote your info on a receipt, not a check. There are no laws to cover receipts yet.

You would be free to sue an employee of the store if and when a crime has already been commited with your info, but not the store. Not until some laws are changed.

Complaining to Visa is a must. Since there are no laws covering receipts, if you can find the time to push this to the nth degree, it would be great if you can help push it to law. Safeguard more people than just yourself.

 

Yeah, no "deep pockets".

 

Anyway, why do so many people feel the need to roll over and give whatever is asked for just because somebody said so?

 

(general all-inclusive comment, not ID only)

[Peekaboo]

This is the problem; a case filed against TJ Max in OR or WA, I can't remember which, dealt with a person's phone # being used to harrass the plaintiff. The defendent got the plaintiffs phone # while standing behind them at the checkout. TJ Max is known for asking for people's phone #.

Listing your # in a phone book is covered by laws that don't allow people to abuse the use just because it's visible in a book.

However, the plaintiff freely gave away that private info in a public forum where there was no intent to keep it private and no laws cover that.

The judge ruled that the plaintiff freely gave it away and that TJ Max had no responibility to safeguard that info.

The plaintiff was free to sue the defendent directly, but since the defendent was in prison for another charge, it seemed a moot point.

They appealed and lost again as to this day there are no laws to enforce a company to safeguard info you freely give.

They defined the difference in when a company must safeguard personal info as when your info is compulsory.

Showing your ID is voluntary on your part as well as giving a store your phone # at checkout, therefore it will be deemed that the company is not responsible.

 

The clerk wrote your info on a receipt, not a check. There are no laws to cover receipts yet.

You would be free to sue an employee of the store if and when a crime has already been commited with your info, but not the store. Not until some laws are changed.

Complaining to Visa is a must. Since there are no laws covering receipts, if you can find the time to push this to the nth degree, it would be great if you can help push it to law. Safeguard more people than just yourself.

 

Yeah, no "deep pockets".

 

Anyway, why do so many people feel the need to roll over and give whatever is asked for just because somebody said so?

 

(general all-inclusive comment, not ID only)

 

Well, as far as ID goes in cc transactions, as I said earlier, I have yet to discover any concrete documentation that presents me (as a consumer) an intelligent argument against it. I said earlier, I've made a point to say something when asked before, but I honestly cannot come up with a valid reason when they rebut that matching the name on the card and ID is to help curb ID theft. It'd be great if I had that, however, I simply don't know other than a merchant agreement between the store and the cc issuer (which isn't between me as a consumer and anyone)

The bottom line is, it is usually just plain faster to let them see my name than try to get a cashier to understand that what his/her manager instructs them to do is wrong and against their merchant agreement. I didn't go ballistic on this cashier, because it's not HER policy, she's just trying to do her job and keep her boss happy, she does not have the authority to do otherwise.

[Uncle Leo]

Anyway, why do so many people feel the need to roll over and give whatever is asked for just because somebody said so?

 

(general all-inclusive comment, not ID only)

Well, as far as ID goes in cc transactions, as I said earlier, I have yet to discover any concrete documentation that presents me (as a consumer) an intelligent argument against it. I said earlier, I've made a point to say something when asked before, but I honestly cannot come up with a valid reason when they rebut that matching the name on the card and ID is to help curb ID theft. It'd be great if I had that, however, I simply don't know other than a merchant agreement between the store and the cc issuer (which isn't between me as a consumer and anyone)

The bottom line is, it is usually just plain faster to let them see my name than try to get a cashier to understand that what his/her manager instructs them to do is wrong and against their merchant agreement. I didn't go ballistic on this cashier, because it's not HER policy, she's just trying to do her job and keep her boss happy, she does not have the authority to do otherwise.

 

You have yet to discover because you don't feel it's a big deal. And that's fine. There have been plenty of reasons, some solid and some not-so-solid, given throughout this forum. All subject to individual priority and interpretation, of course.

 

Personally? I see the "because you can't make me" argument and childish and petty. I dislike showing ID because of the potential for ID theft. Rare, yes, but still a potential, and my first obligation is to myself.

 

Having said that, I do believe in the common good, and I do sympathize with merchants who get stuck with the bill on fraudulent activity, and I don't think faud is acceptable even if I don't get billed for it directly, and I'm willing to help... to a point... after I protect myself.

 

I must be lucky, because I rarely get asked. My best approach so far has been to simply say "I don't have it on me" then shut-up and let them figure it out. It's only happened a couple times, but both times they caved. I, also, will not berate the clerk. It's rude and they're just doing what they're told. I prefer to not even cause a scene and berate the manager or owner. I'll just go home and report them to VISA or MC and let them deal with it.