Repo Ghost Visits to Torment Me...

[squall206]

I'm new to the boards, but have always enjoyed reading the quality advice and inspiring stories. This time, I'm the one in need of your words of wisdom.

 

I had an auto repo a while back, with last activity showing as 12/2000. Thanks to the wonderful "contracts under seal" provisions of North Carolina, the outstanding balance and interest are well within the SoL.

 

Recently, the good folks at Scumbag & Soulless Collection Agency have been hitting me up for approximately $7000. I went through the validation process with letters skillfully crafted by the base legal office (I'm active duty military). The debt was incurred well before my enlistment, but I'm sure that's immaterial to the case.

 

To make a long story short, the debt is legit and they can prove it. They have given me five days to pay up or it "may result in immediate recommendation that this account be pursued through legal recourse." I might be in the minority here, but I don't keep several thousand dollars on tap for these little inconveniences.

 

The good news is that I can come up with enough money to offer a settlement within a week or so. I plan on using one of the excellent templates in the Sample Letter section of these boards.

 

Here are my questions:

 

1. This baby is just a matter of months from falling off my CRs. Will a settlement (or full payment, if it comes to it) re-age the entire deal?

 

2. What is a realistic percentage to offer as a settlement?

 

3. Should I make any type of telephone communication at all, given the five-day "or else" threat in the letter?

 

Thanks for your assistance! These boards have been an addictive read for a good while now, and I hope to stick around and learn even more in the future.

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[breeze]

^

[seattle]

Where are you currently living and how long have you been there?

[squall206]

Where are you currently living and how long have you been there?

 

For legal purposes, I'm a resident of NC and susceptible to their laws. I'm stationed elsewhere, but Federal law dictates that service members are responsible to the laws of their home of record (according to the JAG).

[squall206]

Where are you currently living and how long have you been there?

 

Whoops, I totally forgot the second half of your question. I have legally lived there for over seven years (since right before the repo).

[breeze]

I wouldn't worry about the 5 day or else. That's a tactic. Paying it probably will change some dates on your reports, but the entire record should come off at the 7 year mark anyway. Keep good records, with all the dates, so you can back it up when you dispute it - because you will have to fight them for it, they'll try to make it stick on there another 7 years.

 

To settle - figure out the most you can pay. Make an offer well below it that leaves you room to negotiate. Be difficult. Once they know you have money and intend to pay - you hold some of the cards -you have what they want. They are close to getting it. Try to draw it out towards the end of the month if you can, becaue they get more desperate as the month comes to a close.

 

Actually, I think you could fight this if all of the laws were not followed during the reposession. They hardly ever are. But I'm sure you don't have all day to research and go to court over it. You might want to check on some of those things, and kind of toss them into the negotiations to help them see it more your way - like you know how to fight them if you have to, only don't say that. Did they give you an opportunity to redeem the vehicle? Did they send you all the correct notices? Did they sell the vehicle for a fair market value? I don't know NC laws, but in most states collecting a deficiency balance depends on a lot of other laws being followed at the time of the repo.

[nickelnm]

As a member of the 'extended military family'; I would say DON'T pay it. For one thing since the debt was incurred BEFORE you joined the military and they are coming after their money AFTER you joined, then I would attempt to use the SCRA to get them to cap the interest rate at 6% and then, they would have to re-do the WHOLE thing at 6% and re-apply ALL of your payments and all the fun stuff and then you might um, owe nothing.

 

I would also research the laws about repos and make sure EVERYTHING WAS FOLLOWED TO THE T. Another good resource for you might the the folks at "ACS" they teach some Finance classes and 'supposedly' have credit repair stuff in it and they will help you with the credit repair (I haven't taken the class, but this is what they told me when I offered to teach a class just on credit repair and the fun basics I have learned here and there)

 

Nicole

[squall206]

As a member of the 'extended military family'; I would say DON'T pay it. For one thing since the debt was incurred BEFORE you joined the military and they are coming after their money AFTER you joined, then I would attempt to use the SCRA to get them to cap the interest rate at 6% and then, they would have to re-do the WHOLE thing at 6% and re-apply ALL of your payments and all the fun stuff and then you might um, owe nothing.

 

 

I would also research the laws about repos and make sure EVERYTHING WAS FOLLOWED TO THE T. Another good resource for you might the the folks at "ACS" they teach some Finance classes and 'supposedly' have credit repair stuff in it and they will help you with the credit repair (I haven't taken the class, but this is what they told me when I offered to teach a class just on credit repair and the fun basics I have learned here and there)

 

Nicole

 

Thanks for the good info. I'll check into the ACS thing, and I'll ask the JAG tomorrow about the SCRA. Part of me wants to fight this, and part of me wants to just kill this beast and put it behind me once and for all.

 

I'm also curious as to whether this is a JDB or an assigned CA since they requested that I make my check payable to the original client. Very strange for such an old debt.

[squall206]

I wouldn't worry about the 5 day or else. That's a tactic. Paying it probably will change some dates on your reports, but the entire record should come off at the 7 year mark anyway. Keep good records, with all the dates, so you can back it up when you dispute it - because you will have to fight them for it, they'll try to make it stick on there another 7 years.

 

To settle - figure out the most you can pay. Make an offer well below it that leaves you room to negotiate. Be difficult. Once they know you have money and intend to pay - you hold some of the cards -you have what they want. They are close to getting it. Try to draw it out towards the end of the month if you can, becaue they get more desperate as the month comes to a close.

 

Actually, I think you could fight this if all of the laws were not followed during the reposession. They hardly ever are. But I'm sure you don't have all day to research and go to court over it. You might want to check on some of those things, and kind of toss them into the negotiations to help them see it more your way - like you know how to fight them if you have to, only don't say that. Did they give you an opportunity to redeem the vehicle? Did they send you all the correct notices? Did they sell the vehicle for a fair market value? I don't know NC laws, but in most states collecting a deficiency balance depends on a lot of other laws being followed at the time of the repo.

 

Good call on keeping records. I can predict with almost absolute certainty that I will be hounding the CRAs well after this gets resolved. From what I've read, re-aging after the date of initial delinquency is highly illegal, but nonetheless all too common.

 

If I choose to offer a settlement (and I need to figure that out quickly), I will most certainly start low. All this business is dubious at best, and I don't see a reason to be overly generous.

 

The problem with the repo thing is that I'm sure the proper procedures weren't followed, but I have no way of proving or even researching it after all this time. I know for a fact that I never received an opportunity to redeem the vehicle, and the statement of resale was sent to an outdated address (trouble is, I never notified them of the new address-- it was a very messed up time in my life).

[peter4lisa]

As a member of the 'extended military family'; I would say DON'T pay it. For one thing since the debt was incurred BEFORE you joined the military and they are coming after their money AFTER you joined, then I would attempt to use the SCRA to get them to cap the interest rate at 6% and then, they would have to re-do the WHOLE thing at 6% and re-apply ALL of your payments and all the fun stuff and then you might um, owe nothing.

 

I would also research the laws about repos and make sure EVERYTHING WAS FOLLOWED TO THE T. Another good resource for you might the the folks at "ACS" they teach some Finance classes and 'supposedly' have credit repair stuff in it and they will help you with the credit repair (I haven't taken the class, but this is what they told me when I offered to teach a class just on credit repair and the fun basics I have learned here and there)

 

Nicole

 

 

Your crazy if you pay it Sol in NC is 3 yrs 4yrs max for written contracts and they can't garnish your pay unless the rules are different for military people , well has you did not get the debt while you was in the military so they can't touch you there , then send them a FOAD letter and tell them if they try to take it to court that it's time barred and you will tell the judge that and sue them back for wasting your time.

[dixiedrifter]

Actually the SOL is none of the above.

 

All secured contracts such as vehicle sales are governed under Uniform Commericial Code.

 

A repo "perfects" the agreement, thus making a breach of agreement cause of action moot.

 

Any deficiancy balance would covered under UCC, which has its own SOL of 4 years.

 

The OP needs to send the law firm a SOL-FOAD letter.

[squall206]

Actually the SOL is none of the above.

 

All secured contracts such as vehicle sales are governed under Uniform Commericial Code.

 

A repo "perfects" the agreement, thus making a breach of agreement cause of action moot.

 

Any deficiancy balance would covered under UCC, which has its own SOL of 4 years.

 

The OP needs to send the law firm a SOL-FOAD letter.

 

If that's the case, this is an incredible breakthrough! Is there a particular statute I can quote for the letter? I've been crawling through the law codes for weeks with no luck, and I would love nothing more than to shove this in their faces.

[Doggenstein]

You must always bargain from a position of strength. Find out what THEY have done wrong (or make some things up if you must) and go on the offensive. Otherwise they have nothing to gain (or to avoid losing) by negotiation; hence, they won't.

[pryan67]

you're saying you can't prove that they didn't follow the laws...

 

it's fairly simple in this case

 

 

can they prove they sent you the proper notices? Can they prove that they sold the vehicle in a commercially reasonable manner?

[shado]

You might want to read over Why Chat's repo letters.

 

http://whychat.5u.com/repoltr.html

[Frontman]

I wouldn't worry about the 5 day or else. That's a tactic. Paying it probably will change some dates on your reports, but the entire record should come off at the 7 year mark anyway. Keep good records, with all the dates, so you can back it up when you dispute it - because you will have to fight them for it, they'll try to make it stick on there another 7 years.

 

To settle - figure out the most you can pay. Make an offer well below it that leaves you room to negotiate. Be difficult. Once they know you have money and intend to pay - you hold some of the cards -you have what they want. They are close to getting it. Try to draw it out towards the end of the month if you can, becaue they get more desperate as the month comes to a close.

 

Actually, I think you could fight this if all of the laws were not followed during the reposession. They hardly ever are. But I'm sure you don't have all day to research and go to court over it. You might want to check on some of those things, and kind of toss them into the negotiations to help them see it more your way - like you know how to fight them if you have to, only don't say that. Did they give you an opportunity to redeem the vehicle? Did they send you all the correct notices? Did they sell the vehicle for a fair market value? I don't know NC laws, but in most states collecting a deficiency balance depends on a lot of other laws being followed at the time of the repo.

 

Good call on keeping records. I can predict with almost absolute certainty that I will be hounding the CRAs well after this gets resolved. From what I've read, re-aging after the date of initial delinquency is highly illegal, but nonetheless all too common.

 

If I choose to offer a settlement (and I need to figure that out quickly), I will most certainly start low. All this business is dubious at best, and I don't see a reason to be overly generous.

 

The problem with the repo thing is that I'm sure the proper procedures weren't followed, but I have no way of proving or even researching it after all this time. I know for a fact that I never received an opportunity to redeem the vehicle, and the statement of resale was sent to an outdated address (trouble is, I never notified them of the new address-- it was a very messed up time in my life).

 

It's not up to you to prove that they are wrong, it's up to them to prove that they have followed all applicable laws and are reporting correctly. I wouldn't pay a cent on this debt, it's close to falling off on it's own accord anyway. You can dispute the debt on a couple different grounds; as being reported "inaccurately", or as "obsolete", as it is close to the 7 year mark.

 

If I were you, I would rather have the debt deleted than simply let it fall off. If you ever need a security clearance a full factual report will be pulled, and the account will show up there. I doubt it would prevent your getting the clearance, but you would have to provide an explanation for the account.

[chriswufgator]

Actually the SOL is none of the above.

 

All secured contracts such as vehicle sales are governed under Uniform Commericial Code.

 

A repo "perfects" the agreement, thus making a breach of agreement cause of action moot.

 

Any deficiancy balance would covered under UCC, which has its own SOL of 4 years.

 

The OP needs to send the law firm a SOL-FOAD letter.

 

That's usually not the case...all things auto are usually specifically regulated by a state motor vehicle code, which will generally include finance and lien provisions. Most have a separate section dealing with authorizing repossessions and the method and manner in which they are to be carried out.

 

Remember, just because a state has adopted portions of the UCC doesn't mean they have to adopt all of it, or adopted it to apply to all situations, and it doesn't mean they can't pre-empt it later. Most states pick and choose, and auto issues like repossession are most always regulated by non-UCC state legislation.

 

In any event, it would be a moot issue since he doesn't have a dispute with the finance company or the car dealer...he is having issues with a collection agency following a repo. The UCC doesn't guide repos, and certainly wouldn't help him in a collection matter.

Edited September 4, 2007 by chriswufgator

[Frisbee]

Here we go again. Chris is not a fan of using the UCC for repos. However, there are MANY members here who have correctly used the UCC to defeat repo deficiencies.

 

Dixie gave you the right answer. Chi gave you an important link. Please read everything WhyChat has posted at:www.whychat.5u.com concerning repos.

 

Then please read:

 

http://www.ncleg.net/EnactedLegislation/St...Chapter_25.html

 

Scroll down about 90% and start reading at:

 

PART 6.

 

DEFAULT.

 

SUBPART 1. Default and Enforcement of Security Interest.

 

I expect this thread is about to "blow up". My only suggestions to you are:

 

1. read everything I've posted

 

 

2. do a search here for the word "repo". I think that will give you a good idea how these are handled.

 

3. be careful about listening to anybody including lawyers. Too many lawyers (from experience) don't understand/use the UCC. If you have a lawyer available to you (JAG) show them the sections I've sent you.

 

4. make an educated decision on how to proceed once you are sure what the right thing for you is.

 

I am not going to post in this thread anymore. I'm pretty sure I know what is coming next. I would suggest you check credentials of certain posters names like, Dixie, WhyChat, Pryan, Breeze, me and Chris. Make your own decision.

 

Thank you for your service to our Country. I wish you well.

[drew3918]

OP, Glad to see you got some answers, I would do as Frisbee said

[chriswufgator]

Here we go again. Chris is not a fan of using the UCC for repos. However, there are MANY members here who have correctly used the UCC to defeat repo deficiencies.

 

Dixie gave you the right answer. Chi gave you an important link. Please read everything WhyChat has posted at:www.whychat.5u.com concerning repos.

 

Then please read:

 

http://www.ncleg.net/EnactedLegislation/St...Chapter_25.html

 

Scroll down about 90% and start reading at:

 

PART 6.

 

DEFAULT.

 

SUBPART 1. Default and Enforcement of Security Interest.

 

I expect this thread is about to "blow up". My only suggestions to you are:

 

1. read everything I've posted

 

 

2. do a search here for the word "repo". I think that will give you a good idea how these are handled.

 

3. be careful about listening to anybody including lawyers. Too many lawyers (from experience) don't understand/use the UCC. If you have a lawyer available to you (JAG) show them the sections I've sent you.

 

4. make an educated decision on how to proceed once you are sure what the right thing for you is.

 

I am not going to post in this thread anymore. I'm pretty sure I know what is coming next. I would suggest you check credentials of certain posters names like, Dixie, WhyChat, Pryan, Breeze, me and Chris. Make your own decision.

 

Thank you for your service to our Country. I wish you well.

 

 

My argument with you over this the last time related to a specific state, which had only partially adopted the UCC and had enacted legislation dealing specifically with auto finance, liens, and repos.

 

Not sure what your point is about my "credentials", since I posted links to the relevant statutes that governed that previous OP's issues in their state (which, notably, were NOT the UCC). So, I guess maybe we should all check the credentials of the state senators responsible for that legislations' passage as well? Lol. Argue with me all you want, the statute is what it is.

 

I will be the first one to admit I don't have a clue how it works in NC. Just pointing out that states often cover automobile sales and financing in their own statutes, despite having otherwise adopted the UCC.

 

Meaning: She should check her state legislation regarding auto liens, finance, and repos outside of the UCC as well. If he/she finds herself in court, that will most assuredly affect the outcome.

Edited September 4, 2007 by chriswufgator

[chriswufgator]

Also, I guess my disagreement with Frisbee is just that the UCC is not a "be-all-end-all"...

 

The UCC is relatively liberal, being mainly designed for resolution of disputes between merchants.

 

When you are dealing with consumer issues like auto finance and repos, your state is likely to have set down additional guidelines to stop abusive practices. These can often be more protective than the UCC, and may or may not be more useful to you depending on your situation. A parallel example of this is the often debated FDCPA/FCRA vs. TFC situation. While, as an example, you can sue in TX state court under the federal legislation (which provides for action in "any court of competent jurisdiction"), the TFC also applies and grants more protection than its counterpart, meaning it will be more beneficial to your case on many of the same issues.

 

Additionally, some states exclude automobile sales and finance contracts to consumers from coverage under the UCC altogether, so you need to be aware of the structure in your state, both because the state provisions may be more helpful as an option, and because in some situations the state provisions are your only basis for action.

[dixiedrifter]

I suggest chriswufgator sits down and read his UCC statutes with the link Frisbee provided, one would see that NC UCC § 25‑2‑203 says that:

 

Seals inoperative.

 

The affixing of a seal to a writing evidencing a contract for sale or an offer to buy or sell goods does not constitute the writing a sealed instrument and the law with respect to sealed instruments does not apply to such a contract or offer. (1965, c. 700, s. 1.)

 

Coupled with the NC statutes relating to SOLs on contracts, the account is time barred six ways to Sunday.

 

And since the account should fall off by the end of the year, as I said before, the proper course is to inform them of the SOL/F*ck Of And Die letter.

[Jen23514]

I suggest chriswufgator sits down and read his UCC statutes with the link Frisbee provided, one would see that NC UCC § 25‑2‑203 says that:

 

Seals inoperative.

 

The affixing of a seal to a writing evidencing a contract for sale or an offer to buy or sell goods does not constitute the writing a sealed instrument and the law with respect to sealed instruments does not apply to such a contract or offer. (1965, c. 700, s. 1.)

 

Coupled with the NC statutes relating to SOLs on contracts, the account is time barred six ways to Sunday.

 

And since the account should fall off by the end of the year, as I said before, the proper course is to inform them of the SOL/F*ck Of And Die letter.

 

[squall206]

I suggest chriswufgator sits down and read his UCC statutes with the link Frisbee provided, one would see that NC UCC § 25‑2‑203 says that:

 

Seals inoperative.

 

The affixing of a seal to a writing evidencing a contract for sale or an offer to buy or sell goods does not constitute the writing a sealed instrument and the law with respect to sealed instruments does not apply to such a contract or offer. (1965, c. 700, s. 1.)

 

Coupled with the NC statutes relating to SOLs on contracts, the account is time barred six ways to Sunday.

 

And since the account should fall off by the end of the year, as I said before, the proper course is to inform them of the SOL/F*ck Of And Die letter.

 

Excellent post! I really appreciate everyone's feedback. Even if not everyone here sees eye-to-eye, it really does help tremendously.

 

I came across the above statute this morning, and the JAG seemed skeptical. He said that it doesn't seem like it would hold water in a court, but that I might have better luck with a consumer affairs attorney that specializes in such matters.

 

Another part of NC's UCC statue has me equally worried:

 

§ 25‑2‑725. Statute of limitations in contracts for sale.

 

(1) An action for breach of any contract for sale must be commenced within four years after the cause of action has accrued. By the original agreement the parties may reduce the period of limitation to not less than one year but may not extend it.

 

(2) A cause of action accrues when the breach occurs, regardless of the aggrieved party's lack of knowledge of the breach. A breach of warranty occurs when tender of delivery is made, except that where a warranty explicitly extends to future performance of the goods and discovery of the breach must await the time of such performance the cause of action accrues when the breach is or should have been discovered.

 

(3) Where an action commenced within the time limited by subsection (1) is so terminated as to leave available a remedy by another action for the same breach such other action may be commenced after the expiration of the time limited and within twelve months after the termination of the first action.

 

(4) This section does not alter the law on tolling of the statute of limitations nor does it apply to causes of action which have accrued before this chapter becomes effective. (1965, c. 700, s. 1; 1967, c. 562, s. 1.)

 

I did get some good news out of the meeting, though. Apparently, the interest that has been applied to the deficient amount has been almost twice the legal limit as prescribed in the Servicemembers Relief Act. Since much of the interest accumulated while I have been in the military, this is no small deal. The question is how to use it.

 

Before I came home today and checked these messages, I was certain that I had no choice but to send a settlement proposal. Then I come on here, and it seems like all is not lost. But it's all a huge gamble. I could try to settle now and hope to get away partially unscathed, or I can go for broke and hope they either leave me alone (ha!) or sue me (and possibly win). So much is at stake, and I'm very confused.

 

I appreciate all your opinions, though. I'm still lost, but my perspective is improving as your valuable insights continue to educate me.

 

(Aside to Frisbee- I'm sorry that you have chosen not to post in this thread anymore, and I wish you would change your mind, but whatever your decision may be, please accept my heartfelt thanks.)