What happens when you sign the receipt then get asked for ID?

[Towncar]

I have seen this question several times and I will address it.

 

What happens if your purchase is rung up, the receipt printed, your signature (or PIN) given, then ID is demanded to "complete" the transaction? What happens if the store prevents you from leaving with your merchandise?

 

 

Legally, as soon as you have signed (or entered a PIN), the transaction has been completed. When the clerk rang up the total, and requested payment of a specific amount, they have formally made an offer to sell you the specified goods for the specified total, provided acceptable payment is tendered. Although certain statutory exceptions exist in some states, none apply to retail sales of common goods; the exceptions apply to things such as real estate, conveyances, etc.

 

Keep in mind that displaying a good and a price is not an offer to sell, but merely an invitation to treat, and a merchant may refuse to complete the transaction for whatever reason up to the point of payment acceptance, provided it does not run afoul of advertising laws. A merchant could choose to refuse a sale based on a specific combination of goods, a pricing error, or your insistence on paying in pennies, so long as payment has not yet been made.

 

As soon as you provide valid payment, the title to the goods passes to the buyer. An authorized credit or debit card, followed by the appropriate signature or PIN, constitutes valid payment, and a completed transaction. What makes it valid payment? Simple. The merchant has indicated through signage that certain cards are to be accepted. The merchant has also agreed to honor those cards and abide by processor rules, as have you. Both the merchant and you are party to the rules of the processing network.

 

 

What happens if the transaction is complete, ID is required, and you fail to produce it? Legally speaking, the goods are yours and you are free to leave the store. If the merchant attempts to take the goods and void the transaction, that may constitute theft. If the merchant attempts to detain you for trying to leave the store with your lawfully purchased goods, that may constitute false imprisonment. In either case, you should contact the police immediately to report the merchant's CRIME, as the goods are yours and you have the right to leave the store. Immediately afterword, report the violation and retain counsel to pursue a claim against the merchant.

 

(N.B. A defense of suspicion of theft asserted by the merchant against the above possible offenses would likely be invalid, so long as you politely refused the ID requirement without becoming belligerent, as the merchant's own signed merchant agreement disallows the requirement of ID checks, negating the argument that refusing an ID check is inherently suspicious and evidence of theft or fraud.)

 

 

Disclaimer: If you choose to call a horribly behaved merchant out on violations as described above, you should retain local counsel for further advice prior to attempting such a bold assertion of your property rights in the face of a violating merchant. This post is provided without warranty or assertion of fitness for a specific purpose, and does not constitute formal legal advice, nor do I assume any risk for providing it.

[GEORGE]

"IF" they REFUSE the sale after it is final (all that remains is the signature) MAKE SURE YOU GET A REFUND...or the sale is voided

 

They don't need the sale...that is their loss

 

NO LAW REQUIRES A SIGNED CREDIT CARD SALE INCLUDE A DRIVERS LICENSE

 

(as a condition to finalize the sale)

[Uncle Leo]

What happens if your purchase is rung up, the receipt printed, your signature (or PIN) given, then ID is demanded to "complete" the transaction? What happens if the store prevents you from leaving with your merchandise?

 

Legally, as soon as you have signed (or entered a PIN), the transaction has been completed.

 

Ok, you say the transaction is then completed at the time of signature, so for the sake of conversation let's run with that. How does the cashier compare signatures prior to completing the transaction?

 

Throughout your journey as Continental-cum-Towncar we've established that comparing signatures is a proper and valid form of ID, so what is the cashier supposed to compare to prior to the transaction being "completed"? And, if the signatures are NOT even close, is the transaction still completed? If so, what's the point of even having or comparing signatures?

[Towncar]

What happens if your purchase is rung up, the receipt printed, your signature (or PIN) given, then ID is demanded to "complete" the transaction? What happens if the store prevents you from leaving with your merchandise?

 

Legally, as soon as you have signed (or entered a PIN), the transaction has been completed.

 

Ok, you say the transaction is then completed at the time of signature, so for the sake of conversation let's run with that. How does the cashier compare signatures prior to completing the transaction?

 

Throughout your journey as Continental-cum-Towncar we've established that comparing signatures is a proper and valid form of ID, so what is the cashier supposed to compare to prior to the transaction being "completed"? And, if the signatures are NOT even close, is the transaction still completed? If so, what's the point of even having or comparing signatures?

Signature obviously means valid signature, as defined by the merchant operating policies.

 

Would you like to make a snippy comment about the PIN needing to be a valid PIN, too?

 

This thread is directed entirely at the situations in which the receipt or screen has been properly (there, happy?) signed, and the cashier decides to make up rules and violate policy by demanding ID.

 

If cashiers were trained to accept valid signature as all the ID that is required, per merchant policy, then we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[Uncle Leo]

What happens if your purchase is rung up, the receipt printed, your signature (or PIN) given, then ID is demanded to "complete" the transaction? What happens if the store prevents you from leaving with your merchandise?

 

Legally, as soon as you have signed (or entered a PIN), the transaction has been completed.

 

Ok, you say the transaction is then completed at the time of signature, so for the sake of conversation let's run with that. How does the cashier compare signatures prior to completing the transaction?

 

Throughout your journey as Continental-cum-Towncar we've established that comparing signatures is a proper and valid form of ID, so what is the cashier supposed to compare to prior to the transaction being "completed"? And, if the signatures are NOT even close, is the transaction still completed? If so, what's the point of even having or comparing signatures?

Signature obviously means valid signature, as defined by the merchant operating policies.

 

Would you like to make a snippy comment about the PIN needing to be a valid PIN, too?

 

This thread is directed entirely at the situations in which the receipt or screen has been properly (there, happy?) signed, and the cashier decides to make up rules and violate policy by demanding ID.

 

If cashiers were trained to accept valid signature as all the ID that is required, per merchant policy, then we wouldn't be having this discussion.

 

Nothing 'snippy' about it, and you're skirting around the question. My question has zero to do with ID checking. You said, "Legally, as soon as you have signed (or entered a PIN), the transaction has been completed.", and now you backtrack and say, "Signature obviously means valid signature...". How do they know it's a valid signature if there is no opportunity to verify prior to the transaction being completed?

[BBQ123]

These days as soon as the authorization takes place the charge has gone through. Go to a resturant some time and put the bill on your card and walk out without signing. The charge will still show up.

 

Once they swipe the card and authorization comes back, you own the goods.

[webworm98]

Pin is ok to ask for ID. IF you do not believe me, check your efta you got with your card.

[BBQ123]

Pin is ok to ask for ID. IF you do not believe me, check your efta you got with your card.

 

When you use a pin # it is outside the Visa/MasterCard/AmEx networks and thus doesn't fall under their rules.

 

In that case a merchant can ask for ID... but what good is that? If the authorization came through, the transaction is done. If you don't know the PIN #, even a positive ID won't help.

[Uncle Leo]

These days as soon as the authorization takes place the charge has gone through. Go to a resturant some time and put the bill on your card and walk out without signing. The charge will still show up.

 

Once they swipe the card and authorization comes back, you own the goods.

 

That just reinforces the question... what's the purpose of using a signature as ID verification if you have nothing to verify once the transaction is completed? How does a clerk verify after the transaction is completed?

[GEORGE]

Pin is ok to ask for ID. IF you do not believe me, check your efta you got with your card.

PIN # CARD WHEN USING PIN# THERE IS NO ID NEEDED...because the PIN# is the ID

 

WHERE DOES THE PIN# SHOW ON THE DRIVER'S LICENSE???

Edited November 26, 2008 by GEORGE

[Uncle Leo]

What happens if your purchase is rung up, the receipt printed, your signature (or PIN) given, then ID is demanded to "complete" the transaction? What happens if the store prevents you from leaving with your merchandise?

 

Legally, as soon as you have signed (or entered a PIN), the transaction has been completed.

Ok, you say the transaction is then completed at the time of signature, so for the sake of conversation let's run with that. How does the cashier compare signatures prior to completing the transaction?

 

Throughout your journey as Continental-cum-Towncar we've established that comparing signatures is a proper and valid form of ID, so what is the cashier supposed to compare to prior to the transaction being "completed"? And, if the signatures are NOT even close, is the transaction still completed? If so, what's the point of even having or comparing signatures?

Signature obviously means valid signature, as defined by the merchant operating policies.

 

Would you like to make a snippy comment about the PIN needing to be a valid PIN, too?

 

This thread is directed entirely at the situations in which the receipt or screen has been properly (there, happy?) signed, and the cashier decides to make up rules and violate policy by demanding ID.

 

If cashiers were trained to accept valid signature as all the ID that is required, per merchant policy, then we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Nothing 'snippy' about it, and you're skirting around the question. My question has zero to do with ID checking. You said, "Legally, as soon as you have signed (or entered a PIN), the transaction has been completed.", and now you backtrack and say, "Signature obviously means valid signature...". How do they know it's a valid signature if there is no opportunity to verify prior to the transaction being completed?

 

Well?

[athensgaguy]

What happens if your purchase is rung up, the receipt printed, your signature (or PIN) given, then ID is demanded to "complete" the transaction? What happens if the store prevents you from leaving with your merchandise?

 

Legally, as soon as you have signed (or entered a PIN), the transaction has been completed.

Ok, you say the transaction is then completed at the time of signature, so for the sake of conversation let's run with that. How does the cashier compare signatures prior to completing the transaction?

 

Throughout your journey as Continental-cum-Towncar we've established that comparing signatures is a proper and valid form of ID, so what is the cashier supposed to compare to prior to the transaction being "completed"? And, if the signatures are NOT even close, is the transaction still completed? If so, what's the point of even having or comparing signatures?

Signature obviously means valid signature, as defined by the merchant operating policies.

 

Would you like to make a snippy comment about the PIN needing to be a valid PIN, too?

 

This thread is directed entirely at the situations in which the receipt or screen has been properly (there, happy?) signed, and the cashier decides to make up rules and violate policy by demanding ID.

 

If cashiers were trained to accept valid signature as all the ID that is required, per merchant policy, then we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Nothing 'snippy' about it, and you're skirting around the question. My question has zero to do with ID checking. You said, "Legally, as soon as you have signed (or entered a PIN), the transaction has been completed.", and now you backtrack and say, "Signature obviously means valid signature...". How do they know it's a valid signature if there is no opportunity to verify prior to the transaction being completed?

 

Well?

 

 

Obviously this cashier is not following any of the proper procedures. They are supposed to have the CC in hand as you sign so they are able to compare signatures.

 

If the signature does not match, they are supposed to initiate a Code 10 call.

 

If they are not holding the card, and they are asking for ID, the transaction is blown anyway, and no valid payment is technically possible.

[webworm98]

athensgaguy

 

Then why do credit card companies allow self swipe terminals at merchants? You just swipe your card. Then you are on your way. I was told at one merchants they are never to touch the cards.

[athensgaguy]

athensgaguy

 

Then why do credit card companies allow self swipe terminals at merchants? You just swipe your card. Then you are on your way. I was told at one merchants they are never to touch the cards.

 

They have an additional agreement that allows no signature on transactions that meet certain conditions. That's why.

[Uncle Leo]

athensgaguy

 

Then why do credit card companies allow self swipe terminals at merchants? You just swipe your card. Then you are on your way. I was told at one merchants they are never to touch the cards.

 

They have an additional agreement that allows no signature on transactions that meet certain conditions. That's why.

 

No. Self-swiping machines pre-date no-sig options. Plus, no-sig options are only valid up to a certain amount, and even then not at all stores that use self-swipe terminals.

Edited November 29, 2008 by Uncle Leo

[Uncle Leo]

What happens if your purchase is rung up, the receipt printed, your signature (or PIN) given, then ID is demanded to "complete" the transaction? What happens if the store prevents you from leaving with your merchandise?

 

Legally, as soon as you have signed (or entered a PIN), the transaction has been completed.

Ok, you say the transaction is then completed at the time of signature, so for the sake of conversation let's run with that. How does the cashier compare signatures prior to completing the transaction?

 

Throughout your journey as Continental-cum-Towncar we've established that comparing signatures is a proper and valid form of ID, so what is the cashier supposed to compare to prior to the transaction being "completed"? And, if the signatures are NOT even close, is the transaction still completed? If so, what's the point of even having or comparing signatures?

Signature obviously means valid signature, as defined by the merchant operating policies.

 

Would you like to make a snippy comment about the PIN needing to be a valid PIN, too?

 

This thread is directed entirely at the situations in which the receipt or screen has been properly (there, happy?) signed, and the cashier decides to make up rules and violate policy by demanding ID.

 

If cashiers were trained to accept valid signature as all the ID that is required, per merchant policy, then we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Nothing 'snippy' about it, and you're skirting around the question. My question has zero to do with ID checking. You said, "Legally, as soon as you have signed (or entered a PIN), the transaction has been completed.", and now you backtrack and say, "Signature obviously means valid signature...". How do they know it's a valid signature if there is no opportunity to verify prior to the transaction being completed?

Well?

Obviously this cashier is not following any of the proper procedures. They are supposed to have the CC in hand as you sign so they are able to compare signatures.

 

If the signature does not match, they are supposed to initiate a Code 10 call.

 

If they are not holding the card, and they are asking for ID, the transaction is blown anyway, and no valid payment is technically possible.

 

Forget policy for a moment. Focus on the literal and physical acts and step-by-step process of how the sale completion and verifying the signature works out, as defined by Continental-cum-Towncar above...

 

1. swipe card for authorization (*who* swipes the card is irrelevant)

2. purchase approved, and thus sale is "completed" and finalized

3. sign paper slip or pad

4. verify signature for ID purposes

 

Do you see anything backward in that scenario? How can the signature be verified BEFORE the transaction is completed/finalized? Or, if it's verified AFTER the sale is completed/finalized, what's the point?

 

Disclaimer: No, of course this would not apply for no-sig-required purchases, but it is still a valid question for all other transactions.

[Uncle Leo]

Then why do credit card companies allow self swipe terminals at merchants? You just swipe your card. Then you are on your way. I was told at one merchants they are never to touch the cards.

 

Back when self-swipe machines first came out, and when cashiers still did routinely check signatures, I would always get asked for my card after I swiped. That never made sense to me. If I'm going to hand them the card anyway, why didn't they just swipe it themselves like they always did?

[webworm98]

Then why do credit card companies allow self swipe terminals at merchants? You just swipe your card. Then you are on your way. I was told at one merchants they are never to touch the cards.

 

Back when self-swipe machines first came out, and when cashiers still did routinely check signatures, I would always get asked for my card after I swiped. That never made sense to me. If I'm going to hand them the card anyway, why didn't they just swipe it themselves like they always did?

 

 

This one grocery store I go to. When you choose credit and swipe the card. It says "Please hand card to cashier" This is one told me they are not allowed to touch the card unless there is a problem with the terminal. I am regular there anyways and they know me by my first name.

Edited November 29, 2008 by webworm98

[athensgaguy]

What happens if your purchase is rung up, the receipt printed, your signature (or PIN) given, then ID is demanded to "complete" the transaction? What happens if the store prevents you from leaving with your merchandise?

 

Legally, as soon as you have signed (or entered a PIN), the transaction has been completed.

Ok, you say the transaction is then completed at the time of signature, so for the sake of conversation let's run with that. How does the cashier compare signatures prior to completing the transaction?

 

Throughout your journey as Continental-cum-Towncar we've established that comparing signatures is a proper and valid form of ID, so what is the cashier supposed to compare to prior to the transaction being "completed"? And, if the signatures are NOT even close, is the transaction still completed? If so, what's the point of even having or comparing signatures?

Signature obviously means valid signature, as defined by the merchant operating policies.

 

Would you like to make a snippy comment about the PIN needing to be a valid PIN, too?

 

This thread is directed entirely at the situations in which the receipt or screen has been properly (there, happy?) signed, and the cashier decides to make up rules and violate policy by demanding ID.

 

If cashiers were trained to accept valid signature as all the ID that is required, per merchant policy, then we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Nothing 'snippy' about it, and you're skirting around the question. My question has zero to do with ID checking. You said, "Legally, as soon as you have signed (or entered a PIN), the transaction has been completed.", and now you backtrack and say, "Signature obviously means valid signature...". How do they know it's a valid signature if there is no opportunity to verify prior to the transaction being completed?

Well?

Obviously this cashier is not following any of the proper procedures. They are supposed to have the CC in hand as you sign so they are able to compare signatures.

 

If the signature does not match, they are supposed to initiate a Code 10 call.

 

If they are not holding the card, and they are asking for ID, the transaction is blown anyway, and no valid payment is technically possible.

 

Forget policy for a moment. Focus on the literal and physical acts and step-by-step process of how the sale completion and verifying the signature works out, as defined by Continental-cum-Towncar above...

 

1. swipe card for authorization (*who* swipes the card is irrelevant)

2. purchase approved, and thus sale is "completed" and finalized

3. sign paper slip or pad

4. verify signature for ID purposes

 

Do you see anything backward in that scenario? How can the signature be verified BEFORE the transaction is completed/finalized? Or, if it's verified AFTER the sale is completed/finalized, what's the point?

 

Disclaimer: No, of course this would not apply for no-sig-required purchases, but it is still a valid question for all other transactions.

 

 

Ignoring policy then, neither comparing sigs nor checking ID is a reliable verification, and checking ID is still a violation of customer privacy. Comparing signatures only helps to reduce the merchant's exposure to chargebacks.

[Uncle Leo]

What happens if your purchase is rung up, the receipt printed, your signature (or PIN) given, then ID is demanded to "complete" the transaction? What happens if the store prevents you from leaving with your merchandise?

 

Legally, as soon as you have signed (or entered a PIN), the transaction has been completed.

Ok, you say the transaction is then completed at the time of signature, so for the sake of conversation let's run with that. How does the cashier compare signatures prior to completing the transaction?

 

Throughout your journey as Continental-cum-Towncar we've established that comparing signatures is a proper and valid form of ID, so what is the cashier supposed to compare to prior to the transaction being "completed"? And, if the signatures are NOT even close, is the transaction still completed? If so, what's the point of even having or comparing signatures?

Signature obviously means valid signature, as defined by the merchant operating policies.

 

Would you like to make a snippy comment about the PIN needing to be a valid PIN, too?

 

This thread is directed entirely at the situations in which the receipt or screen has been properly (there, happy?) signed, and the cashier decides to make up rules and violate policy by demanding ID.

 

If cashiers were trained to accept valid signature as all the ID that is required, per merchant policy, then we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Nothing 'snippy' about it, and you're skirting around the question. My question has zero to do with ID checking. You said, "Legally, as soon as you have signed (or entered a PIN), the transaction has been completed.", and now you backtrack and say, "Signature obviously means valid signature...". How do they know it's a valid signature if there is no opportunity to verify prior to the transaction being completed?

Well?

Obviously this cashier is not following any of the proper procedures. They are supposed to have the CC in hand as you sign so they are able to compare signatures.

 

If the signature does not match, they are supposed to initiate a Code 10 call.

 

If they are not holding the card, and they are asking for ID, the transaction is blown anyway, and no valid payment is technically possible.

Forget policy for a moment. Focus on the literal and physical acts and step-by-step process of how the sale completion and verifying the signature works out, as defined by Continental-cum-Towncar above...

 

1. swipe card for authorization (*who* swipes the card is irrelevant)

2. purchase approved, and thus sale is "completed" and finalized

3. sign paper slip or pad

4. verify signature for ID purposes

 

Do you see anything backward in that scenario? How can the signature be verified BEFORE the transaction is completed/finalized? Or, if it's verified AFTER the sale is completed/finalized, what's the point?

 

Disclaimer: No, of course this would not apply for no-sig-required purchases, but it is still a valid question for all other transactions.

Ignoring policy then, neither comparing sigs nor checking ID is a reliable verification, and checking ID is still a violation of customer privacy. Comparing signatures only helps to reduce the merchant's exposure to chargebacks.

 

Option 1: You're being obtuse on purpose.

Option 2: You don't have an answer, either.

Option 3: There is no Option 3.

[athensgaguy]

If they aren't holding the card to compare signature, there is no way they're going to know it's invalid. If they are holding the card and have a problem with the signature, they are supposed to call Code 10. I already said that. If you don't like that answer, then I dunno what to say, because that's the answer to your question, which I already posted. It's not worth it to show ID to some criminal just because they ask for it.

 

If that's obtuse, then maybe you need a bending robot.

[webworm98]

If they aren't holding the card to compare signature, there is no way they're going to know it's invalid. If they are holding the card and have a problem with the signature, they are supposed to call Code 10. I already said that. If you don't like that answer, then I dunno what to say, because that's the answer to your question, which I already posted. It's not worth it to show ID to some criminal just because they ask for it.

 

I do not agree with you implying that every cashier is a criminals because they check ID. That is not the case. Most cashiers (Teenagers, Adults, Seniors) could careless where you live. They are just doing what the boss told them. It does not make the boss a criminal either. There are a few that may do this but not all. I experienced this myself. Just because a few do it, you do not blame them all. The one I experienced did not check ID and used it online.

Edited November 30, 2008 by webworm98

[athensgaguy]

If they aren't holding the card to compare signature, there is no way they're going to know it's invalid. If they are holding the card and have a problem with the signature, they are supposed to call Code 10. I already said that. If you don't like that answer, then I dunno what to say, because that's the answer to your question, which I already posted. It's not worth it to show ID to some criminal just because they ask for it.

 

I do not agree with you implying that every cashier is a criminals because they check ID. That is not the case. Most cashiers (Teenagers, Adults, Seniors) could careless where you live. They are just doing what the boss told them. It does not make the boss a criminal either. There are a few that may do this but not all. I experienced this myself. Just because a few do it, you do not blame them all. The one I experienced did not check ID and used it online.

 

Didn't imply that all are criminal. However, I don't know which are and which aren't, so I'd rather be safe than sorry, especially since I'm in the right anyway when I'm refusing to show ID.

[Uncle Leo]

If they aren't holding the card to compare signature, there is no way they're going to know it's invalid. If they are holding the card and have a problem with the signature, they are supposed to call Code 10. I already said that. If you don't like that answer, then I dunno what to say, because that's the answer to your question, which I already posted. It's not worth it to show ID to some criminal just because they ask for it.

 

If that's obtuse, then maybe you need a bending robot.

 

Bingo! That's all the question was about, very simple and not complex at all, but you insisted on adding more that wasn't being asked.

 

But, even at that, comparing AFTER approval is putting the cart in front of the horse.

 

It is noted that Continental-cum-Towncar still has not attempted to answer and back up his "legal" opinion, even though he has posted elsewhere since. *If* what he says is legally correct, then it seems that the CC's policies ignore the practical reality of the step-by-step process.

Edited December 1, 2008 by Uncle Leo

[athensgaguy]

If they aren't holding the card to compare signature, there is no way they're going to know it's invalid. If they are holding the card and have a problem with the signature, they are supposed to call Code 10. I already said that. If you don't like that answer, then I dunno what to say, because that's the answer to your question, which I already posted. It's not worth it to show ID to some criminal just because they ask for it.

 

If that's obtuse, then maybe you need a bending robot.

 

Bingo! That's all the question was about, very simple and not complex at all, but you insisted on adding more that wasn't being asked.

 

But, even at that, comparing AFTER approval is putting the cart in front of the horse.

 

It is noted that Continental-cum-Towncar still has not attempted to answer and back up his "legal" opinion, even though he has posted elsewhere since. *If* what he says is legally correct, then it seems that the CC's policies ignore the practical reality of the step-by-step process.

 

Swiping only gets an authorization. The transaction isn't done until the merchant submits it. An authorization is easily canceled if there is shenanigans. I'd say the items aren't yours until the signature has been accepted if one is required. If it's a no signature required transaction, the items are yours as soon as it beeps at you.

 

Here's card present rules:

http://usa.visa.com/merchants/risk_managem...rd_present.html

 

Apparently for the "no signature required" special stuff, merchants receive normal protections on amounts under the no sig required limit.

http://usa.visa.com/merchants/payment_tech...aywave_faq.html