Is reporting before dunning a violation?

[Midnite]

I had a collection placed on my TU report on 12/22 by NCS no letters or phone calls received prior to that.

 

I sent out the UKD letter and on 12/24. Can I place a complaint with the AG for that?

[Lynn37]

You would think it was, but it is not. But there is a way out. Send a unknown debt/DV limited C&D CMRR. Either wait for the green card or check online to see if they got it. Then dispute with the CB in writing.

 

1-2 punch

 

Just did it, trade line gone.

[Midnite]

Sweet. I got the green card back yesterday. I unfortunately in my state on anger I disputed online when I seen the trade line. I also fired off a BBB and FTC complaint. I was burning mad I just got to 650 Fico and then this. I never even had an account with BMG music.

[Midnite]

In the mail today is a letter from NCS stating my name, my previous address and alleged BMG account number and and their address.

 

They stated this is the proof of validation. Should I firing off another DV?

[jack1212]

In the mail today is a letter from NCS stating my name, my previous address and alleged BMG account number and and their address.

 

They stated this is the proof of validation. Should I firing off another DV?

 

Yes, they just sent you junk.

 

As to your topic question..I wish it were a violation.

 

jack

[Midnite]

Thanks Jack!

 

Typing it up as we speak. Just plain crazy how they can screw with a person's life without even knowing for sure they have the right person.

[Lynn37]

In the mail today is a letter from NCS stating my name, my previous address and alleged BMG account number and and their address.

 

They stated this is the proof of validation. Should I firing off another DV?

 

Tell them to try again, Make sure they know you asked for validation timely, and they are not allowed to try to collect.

 

I am not sure but you may have an issue with the online disputing with the CB, They may have got that dispute before your UN Known debt letter. So they send their version of validation to you, and then verifies with the CB.

[Midnite]

Lynn37,

 

Never thought of that. I know the investigation is still pending. I did place in the letter that I was responding to their letter based on the letter I sent them and I included the CMRR # and date of the letter.

[IheartLoopHoles]

Just adding another note....make sure to check your state laws.

 

In CA they are required to notify you prior to reporting derog info........

[Midnite]

I tried looking for PA laws hard to find anything on collections. Have a link or a place for me to start?

[Midnite]

Here is the respone from them to the BBB:

 

By law in Pennsylvania no notification prior to credit reporting is necessary, however we will consider Mr. Midnite complaint to your office a dispute and are responding with an initial dunning letter and providing a validation letter to verify the debt.This letter serves as notice that your unpaid Bmg Music Service account has been placed with our offices for recovery at National Credit Solutions-NCS.

As of January 07. 2009 you owe a total of $xxx which MUST be paid within the next 30 days. Be cautioned that unless the balance is paid in full or our offices are contacted to negotiate a payment plan you will be subject to any and all interest incurred and or penalties allowable under the terms of the original contract and in accordance with the laws of the state of Pennsylvania.

Please remit $xxx payable to: NATIONAL CREDIT SOLUTIONS and mail it to the address listed below along with the remittance slip attached to this letter. You may also contact xxx at ext xxx between the hours of 8:00 a.m. and 9:00 p.m.

As a debt collector we must inform you that unless you, within thirty days after receipt of this initial notice, dispute the validity of the debt, or any portion thereof, the debt will be assumed valid by the debt collector. If you notify the debt collector in writing within the thirty-day period that the debt, or any portion thereof, is disputed, the debt collector will obtain verification of the debt or a copy of judgment against you and mail it to you. If requested in writing within thirty days, the debt collector will also provide you with the name and address of the original creditor, if different from the current creditor. A consumer has the right to request in writing that a debt collector or collection agency cease further communication with the consumer. A written request to cease communication will not prohibit the collector or collection agency from taking any other action authorized by law to collect the debt.RE: Bmg Music Service

ACCOUNT #: xxxxxxxxx

BALANCE: *$xxxx

NCS #: xxxx

Dear Midnite,

Per your request, we are providing verification of your Bmg Music Service account. The information is as follows:

Last Known Billing Address Debtor: xxxx, PA 18704

Name of Original Creditor: Bmg Music Service

Original Creditor's Address: P.O. Box 91529, Indianapolis, IN 46209

 

 

Still not giving me proper validation or proving the debt is mine. Now I wait for the dispute with the CRA to complete which I am sure they are going to say verified. So what would be my next move.

[jack1212]

MUST be paid in 30 days or what?

 

Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah.

 

If verified by the CRA's, do a FCRA 623 dispute and demand the documents used to verify such as a signature, billing and payment history and how they came up with all these "fees".

[gweedoh]

As of January 07. 2009 you owe a total of $xxx which MUST be paid within the next 30 days.

Saying you have 30 days to dispute but the debt must be paid within 30 days is confusing and overshadowing (and an FDCPA violation).

 

Can you get that response in hard-copy? You might need it if you decide to sue them.

[Midnite]

Jack,

 

I am waiting for the investigation to complete have not heard back as yet, still in the 30 day period. If it does come back I will do just that.

 

gweedoh,

 

Yes! Just received the letter in the mail actually 2 letters. One what they submitted to the BBB and another stating the unpaid Bmg account is now owned by Capital Assistance Group and has been placed in collections with NCS. As of Jan 6, 2009 I owe $xxx. As required by, law you are hereby notified that a negative credit report reflecting on your credit record may be submitted to a credit reporting agency if you fail to fulfill the terms of your credit obligation. Be cautioned that unless the balance is paid in full or our offices are contacted to negotiate a payment plan on a undisputed debt, you will be subject to any and all interest incurred and or penalties allowable under the terms of the original contract and in accordance with the laws of the state of Pennsylvania.

 

Then goes on with the 30 day dunning message.

[gweedoh]

gweedoh,

 

Yes! Just received the letter in the mail actually 2 letters. One what they submitted to the BBB and another stating the unpaid Bmg account is now owned by Capital Assistance Group and has been placed in collections with NCS. As of Jan 6, 2009 I owe $xxx. As required by, law you are hereby notified that a negative credit report reflecting on your credit record may be submitted to a credit reporting agency if you fail to fulfill the terms of your credit obligation. (<-- This only applies to OCs, so in this case is actually false, but they are CYA because they bought the debt) Be cautioned that unless the balance is paid in full or our offices are contacted to negotiate a payment plan on a undisputed debt, you will be subject to any and all interest incurred and or penalties allowable under the terms of the original contract and in accordance with the laws of the state of Pennsylvania.

 

Then goes on with the 30 day dunning message.

This letter says "undisputed debt" and doesn't present the 30-day paradox that they sent in the response to the BBB so there's no violation here.

[Midnite]

gweedoh,

 

Yes! Just received the letter in the mail actually 2 letters. One what they submitted to the BBB and another stating the unpaid Bmg account is now owned by Capital Assistance Group and has been placed in collections with NCS. As of Jan 6, 2009 I owe $xxx. As required by, law you are hereby notified that a negative credit report reflecting on your credit record may be submitted to a credit reporting agency if you fail to fulfill the terms of your credit obligation. (<-- This only applies to OCs, so in this case is actually false, but they are CYA because they bought the debt) Be cautioned that unless the balance is paid in full or our offices are contacted to negotiate a payment plan on a undisputed debt, you will be subject to any and all interest incurred and or penalties allowable under the terms of the original contract and in accordance with the laws of the state of Pennsylvania.

 

Then goes on with the 30 day dunning message.

This letter says "undisputed debt" and doesn't present the 30-day paradox that they sent in the response to the BBB so there's no violation here.

 

I have disputed the debt. I never received a dunning notice before they placed the item on my credit report. Two days after placing the item I sent a DV which they received on Jan 4. I never received anything from Bmg or Capital Assistance Group prior to the item being placed. I have no idea what this account is.

[gweedoh]

I have disputed the debt. I never received a dunning notice before they placed the item on my credit report. Two days after placing the item I sent a DV which they received on Jan 4. I never received anything from Bmg or Capital Assistance Group prior to the item being placed. I have no idea what this account is.

 

Ok, let's recap....

• NCS put a collection account on your reports on 12/22.
  
• You disputed the debt on 12/24.
  
• You get a "validation" letter from NCS on 1/12 stating the original debt was to BMG.
  
• At some point you filed a complaint with the BBB and NCS responded on 1/13 acknowledging your complaint was being considered a dispute. They then said you must pay the debt within 30 days but that you had 30 days in which to dispute the debt (this is the confusing and overshadowing part). It seems they were also attempting to use their response to the BBB as a form of debt validation, however validation must be obtained from the OC and forwarded to the consumer. This is hard to do through a computer monitor.
  
• You receive a letter on 1/14 from NCS saying the debt is owned by Capital and states your disputing rights.
  

 

So....as for violations, they have sent you confusing and overshadowing communications and continued collection on a disputed but unvalidated debt. If they updated/verified the account with the CRAs since your dispute, there would be a violation or two there also. There is no violation for placing the account on your reports prior to sending you a dunning letter. I know you want it to be, but it isn't.

 

What do you want to accomplish here? Do you want validation? Do you want the account deleted? Do you want to sue them? You should be able to get them to go away with a very strongly worded follow up letter citing FDCPA laws, but I wouldn't take it much beyond that at this stage.

[Midnite]

Thanks for thanking the time to break that down for me! Sorry early morning fog. I read your post and I was was just not getting it.

 

I have no knowledge of opening an account with Bmg so yes I want the account deleted.

 

They just hit my Experian report I just received an alert. So I will send a dispute to them once the green card comes back again for my second request for DV.

 

Pretty sure EQ is next.

[gweedoh]

I have no knowledge of opening an account with Bmg so yes I want the account deleted.

I'm not trying to entrap you, but this "no knowledge" business is code for "yeah, it's probably mine, but I don't think they can prove it."

 

You don't have to answer, but is there any chance this really is your account? I ask because the tone of your letters should be set based on the answer to this question. If you never ever ever ever opened an account with BMG, feel free to quote laws and make demands in your letters. Also, don't bother asking for validation because no matter what they give you, it won't be valid because the only possibility is that they have the wrong person.

 

If, on the other hand, you may have opened an account in the fog of a late night drunken stooper, it's best to keep the tone courteous and professional.

[Midnite]

I have no knowledge of opening an account with Bmg so yes I want the account deleted.

I'm not trying to entrap you, but this "no knowledge" business is code for "yeah, it's probably mine, but I don't think they can prove it."

 

You don't have to answer, but is there any chance this really is your account? I ask because the tone of your letters should be set based on the answer to this question. If you never ever ever ever opened an account with BMG, feel free to quote laws and make demands in your letters. Also, don't bother asking for validation because no matter what they give you, it won't be valid because the only possibility is that they have the wrong person.

 

If, on the other hand, you may have opened an account in the fog of a late night drunken stooper, it's best to keep the tone courteous and professional.

 

I totally understand. I have no problem answering, no traps being set. NO it is not my account I never opened an account with Bmg. I could not find any other way to state it than it is not my account and I have no knowledge of the account, because I never had an account with Bmg. 1 - Cd's waaaay over priced and 2 - I belong to two record pools so all of my music comes by MP3 format (legally) CD's or Records. I have been a member of the pools for a few years now.

 

I am positive they have the wrong person.

Edited January 14, 2009 by Midnite

[gweedoh]

I am positive they have the wrong person.

 

Good enough. Let 'em have it then.

BTW, did you tell them you never had an account and they have the wrong person or did you say "I have no knowledge...."?

 

I would think if you chose the first over the latter, they would have an obligation to conduct a more thorough investigation since either a) BMG or NCS "confused" you with someone else, or someone fraudulently opened an account in your name. Since there's no possible way it's your account, no amount of validation will do anyone any good so you requesting it and/or them providing it is a waste of time. In this case you tell them "I have never had an account with BMG, Capital Assistance Group, NCS or any other affiliate of any of these companies that would have resulted in the debt you are attempting to extort from me. I can't tell you how to do your job, but if you want to get paid, you need to conduct an investigation to identify the correct person that owes this debt because it isn't me and I have no intention of paying a debt I don't owe."

 

If you say "I have no knowledge" all they have to do is provide you with knowledge in the form of validation and their hands are clean.

[Midnite]

Yes I stated exactly that. I never had an account with any of the companies..

 

Thanks so much your insight has been great I have gain a greater understanding from this conversation.

[TheChosenOne]

IME, disputing online with TU has accomplished a quick deletion before so I wouldn't dismiss it.

 

Its also been my experience that you can indeed do a 1-2 punch with the part 2 of the punch being an online (instead of paper) dispute as long as the CA/JDB receives your DV/dispute before the investigation is completed. You just print out the dispute results if it doesn't get deleted and you have proof the CA/JDB verified. How this works is, if they verified with the CRAs and don't respond to your request for validation, its a violation i believe...

 

So you could in theory get that first round of disputes with the CRAs going online. In fact, I've found that online disputes (if chosen to have results emailed to you) are often finished much sooner than the paper ones. This is only for the first round of disputes though, as you are building your case against the JDB(CA) and/or the CRAs. I suggest paper disputes for every round after the initial dispute, as you are building a case.

 

Then the next step would be nailing the bureaus that refuse to delete with not doing a proper investigation (FCRA violation I believe)

 

I could be wrong, Ive kinda gotten rusty at this as its been awhile....

[Midnite]

Thanks in the process of the first round now for Experian and Equifax.. Sent second DV to address the second letter they sent me. This time more strongly worded. I will let everyone know how it goes in a few days.

[Midnite]

Update:

 

TransUnion investigation complete. Came back Verified. I also contacted Capital Assistance Group who National Credit Solutions stated was the original creditor and they stated they sold the account to National on Jan 12 and I should contact them. I contacted BMG 2x and each time they stated to contact Capital because they now service the account.

 

Should I just go ahead and contact the AG now?