"OPEN" WHAT DOES IT MEAN??

[Why Chat]

Most of us assume that a word means what it says, unfortunately, that is NOT always the case, let's take the word "OPEN".

 

The first, and most common definition, is able to have passage through, like an open door or open window, this is tied to it's next definition as used in credit accounts, and frequently misapplied on credit reports, able to be used, i.e. in current use. Next, is a definition that is seldom used in credit or on this forum, open as in open minded, or open for discussion,i.e. receptive to new ideas.

 

Then we get into some "legal" definitions.

 

Open as in an open-ENDED credit card revolving account.

 

Open ( as above in "able to be used) as in a current,and mutual account.

 

Open as in a store or service account, also called a "book" account. ( covered under the UCC) This is NOT the same thing as an "open-ended" credit card account, and it falls under a completely different set of rules, SOL, statutes and case law. This is the one that MANY people confuse with an "open" ended credit card account because of the word "open" used in State statutes and in case-law. It is NOT the same thing. In a "open" or "book" account,there are similarities to a CC account, but the differences are that it is always for a specific merchant or service provider, (like a Dr.).

 

I won't get into all the other meanings of the word "open", but I hope that this little vocabulary lesson will "open" some minds and "open" the door to a better understanding of why I have had so many "discussions" with various people on "legal" questions regarding SOL.

[IDare]

TY Why Chat. I get the impression that some/much of this has been "open" to interpretation by judges as much as by creditors, CA's, and consumers. If you go into court prepared with the definitions from the UCC, TILA, etc, would a state/local court have to accept those vs previous decisions (no matter how wrong they may be) of their own court system? I just have no idea how that works.

[MariAliMar]

I think I understand your clarification, but let me see if I have it right.

 

On my personal credit report, I have a charged off car loan from Household Auto (OC) – car was repossessed back in 2001, but they marked the loan as charged off to bad debt.

 

I also have another listing for the same auto loan by the CA – Midland Credit - where the Account Type is listed as “Open” instead of “Installment” like the OC listing and my current car loan listing.

 

Does this mean that the Midland listing is incorrect? Should it NOT be listed as “Open” since it is not “able to be used”?

 

I also have a charged off Corporate AMEX listing from 1999 that reads “Open”.

 

Plus, I’ve noticed that both of these balances are considered part of my revolving debt. Is that also incorrect?

[Exilict]

account type can be open...

Account status - closed.

 

It can be an open ended account, but the account can not be useable.

 

i think....

 

-Chris

Edited June 18, 2005 by Exilict

[Why Chat]

I think I understand your clarification, but let me see if I have it right.

 

On my personal credit report, I have a charged off car loan from Household Auto (OC) – car was repossessed back in 2001, but they marked the loan as charged off to bad debt.I suggest you send the repo letter to get this deleted, after disputing it as "incorrect, no such account with this creditor for this date for this amount" your balance due on your defaulted loan was nullified when the car was repossessed, at MOST, they MIGHT be allowed to show the deficiency as owing

 

I also have another listing for the same auto loan by the CA – Midland Credit - where the Account Type is listed as “Open” instead of “Installment” like the OC listing and my current car loan listing.I am not sure WHAT "meaning" the CA's are attributing to the word "open" when they put it on the reports, I assume that they are using the meaning that it is an "open",unsatisfied account with THEM, as opposed to "closed" or satisfied or settled

 

Does this mean that the Midland listing is incorrect?  Should it NOT be listed as “Open” since it is not “able to be used”?As I said above, I think they are using the word as it relates (correctly,in my opinion) to an account with them that is in current collection status

 

I also have a charged off Corporate AMEX listing from 1999 that reads “Open”.That one should be disputed as "obsolete"--and I have NO idea why the word "open" is being used there, except it MAY be considered to be "open" as opposed to closed or settled if they were the ones collecting on it in house

 

Plus, I’ve noticed that both of these balances are considered part of my revolving debt.  Is that also incorrect?Yes, I think so-on the Midland car repo which isw incorrect anyway, but was an installment loan, not revolving, but not on the Amex account which was a revolving credit account

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Dolemite_73]

I

 

I also have another listing for the same auto loan by the CA – Midland Credit - where the Account Type is listed as “Open” instead of “Installment” like the OC listing and my current car loan listing.I am not sure WHAT "meaning" the CA's are attributing to the word "open" when they put it on the reports, I assume that they are using the meaning that it is an "open",unsatisfied account with THEM, as opposed to "closed" or satisfied or settled

 

Does this mean that the Midland listing is incorrect?  Should it NOT be listed as “Open” since it is not “able to be used”?As I said above, I think they are using the word as it relates (correctly,in my opinion) to an account with them that is in current collection status

 

 

Do a search for Martinez v. Albuquerque Collections. This case addresses how a CA can not list an account as "open".

[Why Chat]

TY Why Chat. I get the impression that some/much of this has been "open" to interpretation by judges as much as by creditors, CA's, and consumers. If you go into court prepared with the definitions from the UCC, TILA, etc, would a state/local court have to accept those vs previous decisions (no matter how wrong they may be) of their own court system?  I just have no idea how that works. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You need to remember that the issue of credit cards being open ended accounts is founded in most cases in the TILA, which applies to CONSUMER DEBT only.

 

Federal statutes have precedence over State laws, however, because most lawyers and judges dealing with these type of cases have ONLY dealt with business and commercial debt, or on rare occasions "open" or "book" account debt as referenced in current case law, you need to have enough "back up" material from BOTH Federal and State level to:

 

#1- Show that the TILA considers credit cards to be "open-ended" agreements or contracts and NOT closed end "contracts in writing" , and

#2. Show from the State's statutes ,(even if non related to the specific case) that the State acknowledges the concept of Federal Supremacy when it comes to the TILA and FDCPA.

 

This is why, on many State pages, I have put seemingly unrelated statutory references.

[hunter29180]

Thank you WhyChat for the post.. Not sure I understand in its entirity but after 30 more readings and much studing I hope to!!!

I enjoy your post as they give me much to think about...PLEASE KEEP THEM COMMING!!!!

[MariAliMar]

Why Chat - Thanks so much for the info and the advice!

 

I will be sending these letters next week.

 

I really needed a starting point on how to tackle that old car loan - there was $8,000 owed when it was repo'ed, and Midland has it at $16,000+. UGH!

 

I will dispute Amex as obsoletes with the CRAs.

 

In regards to Household Auto, I will send a letter to the CRAs as "no such account for this amount, with this creditor for this date..." I assume then that the repo letter goes directly to Household Auto? I'll have to do a search for that one.

 

As for Midland, should I send them a dv letter?

[Why Chat]

Why Chat - Thanks so much for the info and the advice!

 

I will be sending these letters next week.

 

I really needed a starting point on how to tackle that old car loan - there was $8,000 owed when it was repo'ed, and Midland has it at $16,000+.  UGH!

 

I will dispute Amex as obsoletes with the CRAs.

 

In regards to Household Auto, I will send a letter to the CRAs as "no such account for this amount, with this creditor for this date..." I assume then that the repo letter goes directly to Household Auto?  I'll have to do a search for that one.

 

As for Midland, should I send them a dv letter?The repo letter from my website goes to Midland AND Household AND the original DEALER

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Why Chat]

Do a search for Martinez v. Albuquerque Collections.  This case addresses how a CA can not list an account as "open".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I know that this was CLAIMED as an infraction of the FDCPA in this case, and that A ruling was made, however, as I understand the ruling, it was that they could not "excuse" their use of the term "open" as "mistake"because that was how it was reported in other credit reports, the Court ruled in essence that ANY error can not be excused for "mistake" because "everbody else does it"

 

I did not see any specific ruling in this case that said that reporting an account as "open" WAS not allowed, only that their answer of mistake was not allowed.

 

This particular case is often quoted in many citations because it DID have some very notable case law, particularly in the role of lawyer/ca representations.

 

Martinez v. Albuquerque

Collection Services, Inc., 867 F.Supp. 1495 (D.N.M.1994) (debt

collector liable under the Section for pseudo-attorney

collection letter process, although the attorney was later

employed to file collection suits, because the violation

occurred when the debt collector made the false representation

that the collection letter was from an attorney).

[MariAliMar]

As for Midland, should I send them a dv letter?The repo letter from my website goes to Midland AND Household AND the original DEALER

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I can send the letter to both Midland & Household.

 

I don't think in this instance a letter goes to the dealer because this was a car I purchased when the lease expired - The car was originally obtained through a lease with GMAC - all lease obligations were fulfilled - and when the lease expired, I purchased the car with a loan through Household Auto (applied online - check sent to GMAC for payoff - not the best decision, I know, but I was in my early 20s, desperate and didn't know any better). The dealer had no involvement.

 

So, I don't think the original dealer would have had anything to do with it (the dealer is on CO and I had moved to FL by then).

 

Am I wrong on this or does a letter still go to the dealer?

 

Also, I don't know when the car was re-sold. It was repo'ed and I never heard anything after that - no information on where they were holding it, when it was going to be sold, etc.

 

Can I still send that letter even if I don't know the date it was re-sold?

Edited June 18, 2005 by MiamiStudio

[Dolemite_73]

Do a search for Martinez v. Albuquerque Collections.  This case addresses how a CA can not list an account as "open".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I know that this was CLAIMED as an infraction of the FDCPA in this case, and that A ruling was made, however, as I understand the ruling, it was that they could not "excuse" their use of the term "open" as "mistake"because that was how it was reported in other credit reports, the Court ruled in essence that ANY error can not be excused for "mistake" because "everbody else does it"

 

I did not see any specific ruling in this case that said that reporting an account as "open" WAS not allowed, only that their answer of mistake was not allowed.

 

This particular case is often quoted in many citations because it DID have some very notable case law, particularly in the role of lawyer/ca representations.

 

Martinez v. Albuquerque

Collection Services, Inc., 867 F.Supp. 1495 (D.N.M.1994) (debt

collector liable under the Section for pseudo-attorney

collection letter process, although the attorney was later

employed to file collection suits, because the violation

occurred when the debt collector made the false representation

that the collection letter was from an attorney).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I also think that the FCBA also establishes what an "open" account is. I will research.

[Why Chat]

I also think that the FCBA also establishes what an "open" account is.  I will research.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Please make sure when you are researching ANY word that might have multiple meanings that you review the COMPLETE context of a definition. What MAY seem to be a perfectly logical and useful citation may turn out to have NO contextual reference to it's proposed use.

 

The FCBA definition would deal with the definition of "open" as applied to a bank account or credit account or some other financial situation, it would not, in my opinion, have any bearing on the use of the word"open" as is used by a CA on a credit report.

 

For that, you might want to look at the collection agency "dictionary" I have posted on my website.The term does not appear there at all.

 

However, here are some more definitions:

 

Dictionary

o·pen (ō'pən)

adj.

 

Affording unobstructed entrance and exit; not shut or closed.

Affording unobstructed passage or view: open waters; the open countryside.

 

Having no protecting or concealing cover: an open wound; an open sports car.

Completely obvious; blatant: open disregard of the law.

Carried on in full view: open warfare; open family strife.

Sports. Not closely defended by an opponent: an open receiver.

 

Not sealed or tied: an open package.

Spread out; unfolded: an open book.

Having interspersed gaps, spaces, or intervals: open ranks; an open weave.

 

Accessible to all; unrestricted as to participants: an open competition.

Free from limitations, boundaries, or restrictions: open registration.

Enterable by registered voters regardless of political affiliation: an open primary.

Computer Science. Of or relating to a file that can be accessed.

 

Lacking effective regulation: an open town in which gambling predominated.

Not legally repressed: open drug trafficking.

 

Susceptible; vulnerable: open to interpretation; an issue that is open to question.

Willing to consider or deal with something: open to suggestions.

 

Available; obtainable: The job is still open.

Available for use: an open account; the only course open to us.

Ready to transact business: The store is open.

Not engaged or filled: has an open hour for emergency cases.

Not yet decided; subject to further thought: an open question.

 

Characterized by lack of pretense or reserve; candid: Please be open with me. See synonyms at frank1.

Free of prejudice; receptive to new ideas and arguments: She listened to the proposal with an open mind.

Generous: He is very open with his time.

Printing.

 

Widely spaced or leaded. Used of typeset or other printed matter.

Having constituent elements separated by a space in writing or printing: The word sea horse is an open compound.

Music.

Not stopped by a finger. Used of a string or hole of an instrument.

Produced by an unstopped string or hole or without the use of slides, valves, or keys: an open note on a trumpet.

Played without a mute: an open wind instrument.

Linguistics.

Articulated with the tongue in a low position, as the vowel in far.

Ending in a vowel or diphthong: an open syllable.

Designating a method of punctuation in which commas and other marks are used sparingly.

Being in operation; live: an open microphone.

New England. Clear. Used of weather. See Regional Note at fair1.

Electricity. Containing a gap across which electricity cannot pass: an open circuit.

Mathematics.

Of or relating to an interval containing neither of its endpoints.

Of or being a set such that at least one neighborhood of every point in the set is within the set.

Of or being a set that is the complement of a closed set.

Sports.

Having the forward foot farther from the intended point of impact with the ball than the rear foot: an open batting stance.

Held or swung with the top or outer edge of the striking face pointing slightly farther away from the objective than the lower or inner edge: The club struck the ball with an open face, causing a slice.

 

 

To form spaces or gaps between: soldiers opening ranks.

To break the continuity of; make a gap in: open a circuit.

 

To remove the cover, cork, or lid from.

To remove the wrapping from; undo.

To unfold so that the inner parts are displayed; spread out: open a newspaper.

 

To get (something) going; initiate: open a campaign.

To commence the operation of: open a new business.

 

Games. To begin (the action in a game of cards) by making the first bid, placing the first bet, or playing the first lead.

To make available for use: opened the area to commercial development; opened the computer file and retrieved some data.

To make more responsive or understanding.

To reveal the secrets of; bare.

Sports. To modify (one's stance), as in baseball or golf, so that it is open.

Law. To recall (an order or judgment) for a reexamination of its merits.

v.intr.

To become open: The door opened slowly.

To draw apart; separate: The wound opened under pressure.

To spread apart; unfold.

To come into view; become revealed: The plain opened before us.

To become receptive or understanding.

 

To begin; commence: The meeting opened with a call to order.

To begin business or operation: The store opens early on Saturday.

To be performed, shown, or made available to the public for the first time: The play opens next week.

To be priced or listed at a specified amount when trading begins: Shares opened high and fell sharply.

Games. To make a bid, bet, or lead in starting a game of cards.

To give access: The room opens onto a terrace.

n.

An unobstructed area of land or water.

The outdoors: camping in the open.

An undisguised or unconcealed state: brought the problem out into the open.

A tournament or contest in which both professional and amateur players may participate.

phrasal verb:

open up

 

To spread out; unfold: A green valley opened up before us.

 

To begin operation: The new store opens up next month.

To begin firing: The artillery opened up at dawn.

Informal. To speak freely and candidly: At last the frightened witness opened up and told the truth.

To make an opening in by cutting: The surgeon opened up the patient's chest.

To make available or accessible: open up new markets.

Informal. To accelerate. Used of a motor vehicle.

 

idioms:

open fire

 

To begin firing on.

open (one's) eyes

To become aware of the truth of a situation.

 

Thesaurus

open

 

adjective

 

Free from obstructions: clear, free, unblocked, unimpeded, unobstructed. See open/close.

Having no protecting or concealing cover: exposed, uncovered, unprotected. See protection/exposure.

Not restricted or confined to few: open-door, public, unrestricted. See open/close.

Tending to incur: liable, prone, subject, susceptible, susceptive, vulnerable. See likely/unlikely.

Ready and willing to receive favorably, as new ideas: acceptant, amenable, open-minded, receptive, responsive. See accept/reject.

Available for use: accessible, employable, operable, operative, practicable, usable, utilizable. See possible/impossible.

Not spoken for or occupied: free, uninhabited, unoccupied, unreserved. See owned/unowned.

 

Marked by lack of firm decision or commitment; of questionable outcome: indefinite, uncertain, undecided, undetermined, unresolved, unsettled, unsure, vague. Idioms: up in the air. See certain/uncertain.

 

Manifesting honesty and directness, especially in speech: candid, direct, downright, forthright, frank, honest, ingenuous, man-to-man, plainspoken, straight, straightforward, straight-out, unreserved. Informal straight-from-the-shoulder, straight-shooting. See clear/unclear, show/hide.

verb

 

To become or cause to become open: unclose, undo. See open/close.

To rid of obstructions: clear, free, unblock. See open/close.

To move or arrange so as to cover a larger area. expand, extend, fan1 (out), outstretch, spread, stretch, unfold, unroll. See move/halt.

To go about the initial step in doing (something): approach, begin, commence, embark, enter, get off, inaugurate, initiate, institute, launch, lead off, set about, set out, set to, start, take on, take up, undertake. Informal kick off. Idioms: get cracking, get going, get the show on the road. See start/end.

 

 

 

 

Technology

open

 

To engage a disk or tape file for reading and writing. The open procedure "locks on" to an existing file. Contrast with close.

 

With regard to a switch, open is "off."

 

Made to operate with other products. See open architecture and open systems.

 

 

 

 

Investment

Open

1. An un-executed order that is still valid.

 

2. The start of trading on a securities exchange.

 

Investopedia Says: 1. Orders entered by investors, but not yet transacted are deemed to be open until they expire or are filled.

 

 

 

Legal Dictionary

open1

adj.

 

Exposed to general view or knowledge Free from concealment (an open, notorious, continuous, and adverse use of the property) (an open and obvious danger)

- When a defect, hazard, or condition is open such that a reasonable person under the circumstances should have recognized the danger posed by it, a defendant is usually relieved of liability for failure to warn.

Not restricted to a particular group or category of participants; specif Enterable by a registered voter regardless of political affiliation (an open primary)

 

Being in effect or operation (an open mine) (a bench warrant still open)

Available for use (an open toll road)

Not finally determined, decided, or settled Subject to further consideration (an open question)

Remaining effective or available for use until canceled (an open insurance contract)

Not repressed or regulated by legal controls (a state with open gambling)

open2

vb.

 

opened open·ing -vt

 

To begin the process of (open the succession)

 

To make the statement by which the trial of (a case) is begun and put before the court

To be the first to speak in summing up or arguing (a case)

To restore or recall (as an order, rule, or judgment) from a finally determined state to a state in which the parties are free to prosecute or oppose by further proceedings -vi

To begin action Commence on some course or activity (the stock opened at par)

To begin the trial of a case (defendant…has the option of presenting an opening statement immediately after plaintiff opens - J. H. Friedenthal et al.)

 

 

Meaning #13: not brought to a conclusion; subject to further thought

Synonyms: undecided, undetermined, unresolved

 

 

 

I edited out most of the definitions, and underlined the ones I think are appropriate in their useage by a CA on a credit report.

Edited June 18, 2005 by Why Chat

[Dolemite_73]

I also think that the FCBA also establishes what an "open" account is.  I will research.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Please make sure when you are researching ANY word that might have multiple meanings that you review the COMPLETE context of a definition. What MAY seem to be a perfectly logical and useful citation may turn out to have NO contextual reference to it's proposed use.

 

The FCBA definition would deal with the definition of "open" as applied to a bank account or credit account or some other financial situation, it would not, in my opinion, have any bearing on the use of the word"open" as is used by a CA on a credit report.

 

For that, you might want to look at the collection agency "dictionary" I have posted on my website.The term does not appear there at all.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I see what you are saying. What does Black's law dictionary say? I am curious about that. Until more case law comes out defining "open", I would use Martinez v. Alburquerque Collections like it is going out of style. I am not sure a CA would fight in court to try to establish contradictory case law to this.

[Why Chat]

I also think that the FCBA also establishes what an "open" account is.  I will research.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Please make sure when you are researching ANY word that might have multiple meanings that you review the COMPLETE context of a definition. What MAY seem to be a perfectly logical and useful citation may turn out to have NO contextual reference to it's proposed use.

 

The FCBA definition would deal with the definition of "open" as applied to a bank account or credit account or some other financial situation, it would not, in my opinion, have any bearing on the use of the word"open" as is used by a CA on a credit report.

 

For that, you might want to look at the collection agency "dictionary" I have posted on my website.The term does not appear there at all.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I see what you are saying. What does Black's law dictionary say? I am curious about that. Until more case law comes out defining "open", I would use Martinez v. Alburquerque Collections like it is going out of style. I am not sure a CA would fight in court to try to establish contradictory case law to this.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have edited my post to include the definitions in various area of the word "open" and have underlined the definitions I believe apply to it's useage on credit reports. I don't see what Black's would have to do with it if it is NOT being used as a legal term. You can pick almost ANY common word used on credit reports and find it objectionable if you want to look for a meaning in some other context.

[Dolemite_73]

I see what you are saying. But my argument is that once an OC charges off an account (which happens prior to a CA/JDB) getting the account, said account is no longer open. It is closed because the consumer can no longer use it. So when a CA/JDB notates an account "open", its a misrepresentation of the status of the debt. And because the CA/JDB did not initiate the account with the consumer, they are not extending any credit, so they can not "open" the account in the legal sense of the word.

Also, my arguement is that anything that is put on a CR must be legal according to the FCRA/FDCPA. So looking at Black's Dictionary to get the legal definition of open is very relevant.

Edited June 18, 2005 by Dolemite_73

[Dolemite_73]

This is exactly what the judge said in his ruling in regards to "open" in Martinez v. Albuquerque:

 

“Plaintiff misrepresented the character of the account by claiming it was OPEN”. Martinez v. Albuquerque Collection Services, Inc., 867 F.Supp. 1495 (D.N.M. 1994).

 

Seems pretty cut and dried. CA/JDB who state the status of an account is open violates the FDCPA.

[Dolemite_73]

Here is some more from that ruling:

 

2. OPEN ACCOUNTS

 

Defendant categorized Plaintiff's accounts as "open." (DeVine Dep. Ex. 11.) Section 39-2-2.1 only permits the award of attorney fees in "any civil action . . . to recover on an open account." N.M. Stat. Ann. § 39-2-2.1 (Michie 1991) (emphasis added). An open account "does not mean an amount owed on a single transaction or an account stated. It is a written account concerning a related series of debit and credit entries of reciprocal charges and allowances kept open until it shall suit the convenience of either party to settle and close the account." Southern Union Exploration Co. v. Wynn [*1510] Exploration Co., 95 N.M. 594, 624 P.2d 536 (Ct. App. 1981). [**42] The continuity of an open account is broken where the relationship of the parties changes or where the account has remained dormant(This tells me that once an OC sells/assigns the account to a CA/JDB, the debt is no longer open). 1 Am. Jur. 2d Accounts & Accounting § 5 (1962).

 

OUTCOME:

 

IT IS FURTHER ORDERED that Plaintiff's motion for partial summary judgment on the ground that Defendant's attempt to recover attorney fees by representing Plaintiff's accounts as "open" was a false representation of the character of a debt in violation of section 1692e(2), and was also the attempted collection of an amount not permitted by law, in violation of section 1692f(1) be, and hereby is granted. Defendant's cross motion for summary judgment on the same ground is hereby denied.

Edited June 18, 2005 by Dolemite_73

[Why Chat]

I see what you are saying.  But my argument is that once an OC charges off an account (which happens prior to a CA/JDB) getting the account, said account is no longer open.  It is closed because the consumer can no longer use it.  So when a CA/JDB notates an account "open", its a misrepresentation of the status of the debt.  And because the CA/JDB did not initiate the account with the consumer, they are not extending any credit, so they can not "open" the account in the legal sense of the word.

Also, my argument is that anything that is put on a CR must be legal according to the FCRA/FDCPA.  So looking at Black's Dictionary to get the legal definition of open is very relevant.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am NOT a fan of CA's ( SURPRISE !!) but I think this issue is a non starter.

 

Why do you believe that the term "open" as used by the CA refers to the same term as used by an OC in reporting a current in use account?? It is not, to my knowledge the way a current account is reported-- I have seen "date OPENED", I have seen "current" I have seen "paid as agreed" I have seen "closed", but I have not ever seen the word "open" used on a credit report in the context of an account that is current and in use.

 

If you are arguing that the CA is misrepresenting the status of a debt by using a term that is used for a current account in good standing, then you would have to show that the term "open" is used that way on credit reports.

[Dolemite_73]

CA state account as open, installment, past due, etc. because of the damage it does to consumers in regards to FICO. FICO see these types of notations and dings you for it. So not only are you being punished for having a collection account, you are getting screwed for the illegal notation by the CA. Reporting as open is absolutely a misrepresentation of the STATUS of the account. Once the OC sells it, the account is closed. How can a CA justify it as an open account? I am not following your logic, especially since the CA is not extending any credit nor did the consumer enter into any business agreement with the CA.

[lgt525]

Hi Why Chat,

 

Thanks so much for your thoughtful discourse on this subject, especially in light of some of the nasty threads on this subject recently.

 

I struggle with the definition of "open" in relation to jdb accounts because the jdb companies (asset acceptance, colorado capital, etc...) always list the account as "open" and "120 days or more past due". The jdbs also always keep charging off the account every month (those annoying red circles at the bottom of the trade line on privacy source, PG, MCK, etc). It seems to me that an account cannot be simultaneously, charged off every month and "open".

 

Experian and TU will tend to mark the account "closed" and charged off on dispute, but as many of us have experienced, Equifax will almost always mark the account status as "open" and "120 days past due", even if the account has been charged off, sometimes even if the account has been paid off.

 

It seems to me that under any definition of "open", a jdb charge off is not open. It is not a usable account, it is a charge off, so it is not "open" and on the books of the original creditor anymore, and it certainly cannot be charged off anew every month and still be "open". I guess you could say that from the jdb's perspective it is still an "open" account for them because they are still trying to collect on it, but does this mean that the jdb can mark the account as an "open" trade line on cra reports?

 

I don't know the answer, and would love to hear opinions.

 

lgt

[Dolemite_73]

Hi Why Chat,

 

Thanks so much for your thoughtful discourse on this subject, especially in light of some of the nasty threads on this subject recently.

 

I struggle with the definition of "open" in relation to jdb accounts because the jdb companies (asset acceptance, colorado capital, etc...) always list the account as "open" and "120 days or more past due".  The jdbs also always keep charging off the account every month (those annoying red circles at the bottom of the trade line on privacy source, PG, MCK, etc).  It seems to me that an account cannot be simultaneously, charged off every month and "open".

 

Experian and TU will tend to mark the account "closed" and charged off on dispute, but as many of us have experienced, Equifax will almost always mark the account status as "open" and "120 days past due", even if the account has been charged off, sometimes even if the account has been paid off.

 

It seems to me that under any definition of "open", a jdb charge off is not open.  It is not a usable account, it is a charge off, so it is not "open" and on the books of the original creditor anymore,  and it certainly cannot be charged off anew every month and still be "open".  I guess you could say that from the jdb's perspective it is still an "open" account for them because they are still trying to collect on it, but does this mean that the jdb can mark the account as an "open" trade line on cra reports?

 

I don't know the answer, and would love to hear opinions.

 

lgt

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

delete

Edited June 18, 2005 by Dolemite_73

[lgt525]

Hi Why Chat,

 

Thanks so much for your thoughtful discourse on this subject, especially in light of some of the nasty threads on this subject recently.

 

I struggle with the definition of "open" in relation to jdb accounts because the jdb companies (asset acceptance, colorado capital, etc...) always list the account as "open" and "120 days or more past due".  The jdbs also always keep charging off the account every month (those annoying red circles at the bottom of the trade line on privacy source, PG, MCK, etc).  It seems to me that an account cannot be simultaneously, charged off every month and "open".

 

Experian and TU will tend to mark the account "closed" and charged off on dispute, but as many of us have experienced, Equifax will almost always mark the account status as "open" and "120 days past due", even if the account has been charged off, sometimes even if the account has been paid off.

 

It seems to me that under any definition of "open", a jdb charge off is not open.  It is not a usable account, it is a charge off, so it is not "open" and on the books of the original creditor anymore,  and it certainly cannot be charged off anew every month and still be "open".  I guess you could say that from the jdb's perspective it is still an "open" account for them because they are still trying to collect on it, but does this mean that the jdb can mark the account as an "open" trade line on cra reports?

 

I don't know the answer, and would love to hear opinions.

 

lgt

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The TYPE of account is open. The STATUSof the account is not open. Huge difference.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Often, equifax will have both the type and the status of the account as "open" on these jdb type of trade lines.

[Dolemite_73]

Hi Why Chat,

 

Thanks so much for your thoughtful discourse on this subject, especially in light of some of the nasty threads on this subject recently.

 

I struggle with the definition of "open" in relation to jdb accounts because the jdb companies (asset acceptance, colorado capital, etc...) always list the account as "open" and "120 days or more past due".  The jdbs also always keep charging off the account every month (those annoying red circles at the bottom of the trade line on privacy source, PG, MCK, etc).  It seems to me that an account cannot be simultaneously, charged off every month and "open".

 

Experian and TU will tend to mark the account "closed" and charged off on dispute, but as many of us have experienced, Equifax will almost always mark the account status as "open" and "120 days past due", even if the account has been charged off, sometimes even if the account has been paid off.

 

It seems to me that under any definition of "open", a jdb charge off is not open.  It is not a usable account, it is a charge off, so it is not "open" and on the books of the original creditor anymore,  and it certainly cannot be charged off anew every month and still be "open".  I guess you could say that from the jdb's perspective it is still an "open" account for them because they are still trying to collect on it, but does this mean that the jdb can mark the account as an "open" trade line on cra reports?

 

I don't know the answer, and would love to hear opinions.

 

lgt

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The TYPE of account is open. The STATUSof the account is not open. Huge difference.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Often, equifax will have both the type and the status of the account as "open" on these jdb type of trade lines.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It may very well be a CRA issue. But us as consumers should not be concerned about that especially when they verify what the CRA is reporting.