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Fighting 2 problems. The single most important thing being to stop the spread the spread of the virus; thus saving lives. What is just around the corner is the economic damage, which is not yet realized because the Shelter in Place orders are still in place and being enforced.

 

The latter is not getting the attention it deserves, but every week that the US Economy is effectively shutdown, the debt keeps piling up (rent, mortgage, utilities, health care, insurance, taxes, credit cards, etc). The debt is not forgiven, it is just deferred. If state leaders don't start addressing this, they are setting themselves up for failure. So far, they are not talking about it much, but that will change, and soon.

 

As centex mentioned in another post, it is incredibly frustrating to see good progress in terms of containment in some areas/states, but they are still being shutdown. 

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1 hour ago, NorCalR1 said:

 

As centex mentioned in another post, it is incredibly frustrating to see good progress in terms of containment in some areas/states, but they are still being shutdown. 

I agree we need to plan to open but good containment needs to be more than just not testing. If you don't measure it you can't control it and shouldn't make public policy decisions from it. The "openings" taking place in some states run counter the national plan. But then there are more important things than living.

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1 hour ago, hegemony said:

I agree we need to plan to open but good containment needs to be more than just not testing. If you don't measure it you can't control it and shouldn't make public policy decisions from it. The "openings" taking place in some states run counter the national plan. But then there are more important things than living.

 

Containing the virus and saving lives is the most important thing we as a nation need to do. I don't think many disagree. Once the states open things up, like on the west coast, California is working with Oregon and Washington State, you have to have an economy ready to begin to catch up on all the deferred bills that are piling up. It's not one or the other, being thrown out on the street, losing everything, next to no job prospects, no money leads to another crisis just as bad.

 

 

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46 minutes ago, NorCalR1 said:

 

Containing the virus and saving lives is the most important thing we as a nation need to do. I don't think many disagree. Once the states open things up, like on the west coast, California is working with Oregon and Washington State, you have to have an economy ready to begin to catch up on all the deferred bills that are piling up. It's not one or the other, being thrown out on the street, losing everything, next to no job prospects, no money leads to another crisis just as bad.

 

 

The economic pain is and will be real. I don't disagree at all. Imagine if the LV strip opened up today. Who would visit other than the cronics who can't get to their local tribal casino? What good does reopening a store or restaurant if it can't turn a profit or at least break even?

 

Even after "opening" the economy will remain slow and the deferred bills remain a problem for months, maybe years.

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1 hour ago, hegemony said:

I agree we need to plan to open but good containment needs to be more than just not testing. If you don't measure it you can't control it and shouldn't make public policy decisions from it. The "openings" taking place in some states run counter the national plan. But then there are more important things than living.

Following on from that, it's just obvious the "more important than living" crowd are not taking this seriously, not acknowledging there are responsible middle grounds, and not willing to do any work. 

 

Did you see the "sacrifice the weak" sign at the TN rally? Jesus be a fence.

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57 minutes ago, NorCalR1 said:

 

Containing the virus and saving lives is the most important thing we as a nation need to do. I don't think many disagree. Once the states open things up, like on the west coast, California is working with Oregon and Washington State, you have to have an economy ready to begin to catch up on all the deferred bills that are piling up. It's not one or the other, being thrown out on the street, losing everything, next to no job prospects, no money leads to another crisis just as bad.

 

 

I've said this before, but look to Canada, England, Italy ... there is not a black and white choice between mass economic ruin and suppression. There's a reason the stimulus is chump change and delayed.

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46 minutes ago, smartlypretty said:

 

 

Did you see the "sacrifice the weak" sign at the TN rally? Jesus be a fence.

I missed that one but I did read about how in many states these "protests" are being organized by white nationalists via facebook and not exactly grassroots.

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49 minutes ago, hegemony said:

I missed that one but I did read about how in many states these "protests" are being organized by white nationalists via facebook and not exactly grassroots.

The astroturfing goes hand in hand with the "stimulus" shenanigans, it's a farce - the intent was to starve people out and they'd take this bait. 

 

Here's the sign.

 

A point of discourse is a lot of protesters are not demanding their own right to move freely -- which arguably has not been withdrawn. They're demanding others be conscripted to give haircuts, serve lattes, etc. And the people who do those jobs will have little choice if their state "decides to reopen" and they become ineligible for COVID-19 UI.

 

Waiting for people to realize that spreading coronavirus means you can also get it while getting a haircut 💀 

 

Incidentally, the infection in my house not household was through a hairdresser. 

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Now there are many reports saying the virus has been in the U.S. much longer than was originally thought. I was very sick in January, and both my husband and I are exposed to a lot of different people. We may have had it, but there's no way of knowing. I am definitely starting to think we need to open the economy, but there is no clear answer on how we can do that yet. I think the biggest challenge with this virus situation is the fear and lack of knowledge. We are stuck in analysis paralysis right now.

 

https://www.sfchronicle.com/health/article/First-known-U-S-coronavirus-death-occurred-on-15217316.php

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, RehabbingANDBlabbing said:

Now there are many reports saying the virus has been in the U.S. much longer than was originally thought. I was very sick in January, and both my husband and I are exposed to a lot of different people. We may have had it, but there's no way of knowing. I am definitely starting to think we need to open the economy, but there is no clear answer on how we can do that yet. I think the biggest challenge with this virus situation is the fear and lack of knowledge. We are stuck in analysis paralysis right now.

 

https://www.sfchronicle.com/health/article/First-known-U-S-coronavirus-death-occurred-on-15217316.php

That is a common claim, but it's not likely in the way people think -- good overall explainer here:

 

Quote

No, YOU (bar the first Chinese patients in Wuhan) did not have COVID19 prior to Jan 2020. The first documented cases in China were in late November/early Dec 2019. Scientists can “track” the origins of viruses by sequencing their genetic material. Over time, viruses accumulate mutations that make them identifiable. Think of family trees and tracing genetic mutations, this is very similar.

This piece addresses a lot of the stuff like that, and it's really great and really concise. 

 

ETA: I don't mean to sound strident, the quoted bit is quoted, I am not saying "you," the writer is addressing the rumor in general and no shouty intent I swear. 

Edited by smartlypretty
tone

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1 hour ago, RehabbingANDBlabbing said:

I am definitely starting to think we need to open the economy, but there is no clear answer on how we can do that yet.

There is a clear answer the problem is that the majority of the public are drooling mouth breathing idiots with a room temperature IQ.  WARNING:  my opinion on this may not be popular but it is mine.

 

I have been in health care for 40+ years.  Rule #1:  EVERY living thing dies.  Even non- living things die (cars, electronics etc.)  Rule #2:  there is absolutely NO medical intervention, vaccine, cure or treatment that will prevent Rule #1 from coming in to play.  This is not a statement on the value of individual life or specific group(s).  This is reality.  While each person/family unit/group HOPES they have a long and wonderful life passing quietly of natural causes in their sleep at 105 years of age the truth is most won't.  Every year children/young and people die from the flu, car accidents, rare infections and accidents.  NO ONE wishes for that to happen but it does.  This despite car seat laws, DUI laws, playground equipment regulations.  You cannot pass enough requirements or regulations to stop the final phase of life.  There is ALWAYS someone or some group who believes they know and can do better (think anti-vaxxers)

 

Proof that what we are doing in response to corona is wrong goes back to the new variant of mad cow disease that appeared in England and Europe in 1996.  Young people were dying at an alarming rate.  They stopped exporting beef.  Then they killed EVERY cow in England.  It didn't stop the virus.  They found out it survived in soil and by other means.  Eventually the number of cases in people leveled off and their cattle industry recovered.

 

Shutting down the economy and coming to a standstill is NOT going to stop the corona virus.  People will still get it.  Most will recover.  Some will not.  Will some children die?  Yes.  Young people?  Yes.  The beloved 85 year old organist for the choir at the local church?  Yes.  BUT, we do know the majority will recover.  They are all important to their personal universe but the reality is closing the country/world down and paralyzing the economy while destroying the over all ability to support self and family isn't going to save everyone.  You can't put enough restrictions in place permanently that will prevent anyone from ever getting it again.

 

There are plenty of things that could have been done to contain this without destroying our way of life for decades to come.  I hear calls for a vaccine but look at how many people every year give the middle finger to getting a flu or pneumonia vaccine.  Granted this virus has created way more fear in the public than the flu.  Which brings me to my last observation:  ask yourself WHY the leadership/government has encouraged the media to fan the flames fueling the public fear and panic?  WHY was the majority of money in the PPA funneled to the largest businesses by the banking industry?  WHY have they rushed to push through the financial stimulus checks (which I still don't have by the way).  I have my theory but that is probably too close to the political discussion but will sum it up this way:  Get rid of the middle class.  They want the public dependent on the government.  Keep people scared and dependent and you have the most control.  Of course that didn't work out for England when the colonists came here but sadly there isn't a whole new world to move to when we get fed up with it all.  

 

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48 minutes ago, CreditSucksNot said:

 I hear calls for a vaccine but look at how many people every year give the middle finger to getting a flu or pneumonia vaccine.

That is assuming a vaccine can be developed. We've known of SARS for 20 years and as of yet there's no vaccine. We've known about HIV for over 40 years and there's no vaccine. It took decades to develop a viable vaccine for polio, granted that was back when medical research was not as good as it is now.

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46 minutes ago, IndyPoolPlayer said:

That is assuming a vaccine can be developed. We've known of SARS for 20 years and as of yet there's no vaccine. We've known about HIV for over 40 years and there's no vaccine. It took decades to develop a viable vaccine for polio, granted that was back when medical research was not as good as it is now.

Exactly.  The problem is many of the masses are swallowing the Governor garbage that "we can re-open when we have it contained and a vaccine."  

 

The idiot needs to be recalled NV Governor actually said "when we have the virus contained" in his one hour hot air speech last night.  You CAN'T contain it.  He has destroyed more lives in NV than the virus.  I can't watch the local news anymore.  He deliberately shifts focus from the fact that never was more than half the ventilators available in the state used.  Of those used the majority were not virus patients.  68% of those diagnosed have recovered in NV. The statistics I saw yesterday said that there was no burden on the hospitals (yet he is still trying an unneeded field hospital) and that the majority of patients in ICU beds were NOT virus patients.  This has been controlled in NV but he doesn't want to cede the power he has wielded.  He doesn't care one bit how many lives he destroys in the process.  Even if they threw all the doors open on casinos and businesses tomorrow people don't have the means or desire to risk travel.  Even if they did SOMEONE will get the virus again.  Staying closed another 14/30/90 days won't change that.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, CreditSucksNot said:

There is a clear answer the problem is that the majority of the public are drooling mouth breathing idiots with a room temperature IQ.  WARNING:  my opinion on this may not be popular but it is mine.

 

I have been in health care for 40+ years.  Rule #1:  EVERY living thing dies.  Even non- living things die (cars, electronics etc.)  Rule #2:  there is absolutely NO medical intervention, vaccine, cure or treatment that will prevent Rule #1 from coming in to play.  This is not a statement on the value of individual life or specific group(s).  This is reality.  While each person/family unit/group HOPES they have a long and wonderful life passing quietly of natural causes in their sleep at 105 years of age the truth is most won't.  Every year children/young and people die from the flu, car accidents, rare infections and accidents.  NO ONE wishes for that to happen but it does.  This despite car seat laws, DUI laws, playground equipment regulations.  You cannot pass enough requirements or regulations to stop the final phase of life.  There is ALWAYS someone or some group who believes they know and can do better (think anti-vaxxers)

 

Proof that what we are doing in response to corona is wrong goes back to the new variant of mad cow disease that appeared in England and Europe in 1996.  Young people were dying at an alarming rate.  They stopped exporting beef.  Then they killed EVERY cow in England.  It didn't stop the virus.  They found out it survived in soil and by other means.  Eventually the number of cases in people leveled off and their cattle industry recovered.

 

Shutting down the economy and coming to a standstill is NOT going to stop the corona virus.  People will still get it.  Most will recover.  Some will not.  Will some children die?  Yes.  Young people?  Yes.  The beloved 85 year old organist for the choir at the local church?  Yes.  BUT, we do know the majority will recover.  They are all important to their personal universe but the reality is closing the country/world down and paralyzing the economy while destroying the over all ability to support self and family isn't going to save everyone.  You can't put enough restrictions in place permanently that will prevent anyone from ever getting it again.

 

There are plenty of things that could have been done to contain this without destroying our way of life for decades to come.  I hear calls for a vaccine but look at how many people every year give the middle finger to getting a flu or pneumonia vaccine.  Granted this virus has created way more fear in the public than the flu.  Which brings me to my last observation:  ask yourself WHY the leadership/government has encouraged the media to fan the flames fueling the public fear and panic?  WHY was the majority of money in the PPA funneled to the largest businesses by the banking industry?  WHY have they rushed to push through the financial stimulus checks (which I still don't have by the way).  I have my theory but that is probably too close to the political discussion but will sum it up this way:  Get rid of the middle class.  They want the public dependent on the government.  Keep people scared and dependent and you have the most control.  Of course that didn't work out for England when the colonists came here but sadly there isn't a whole new world to move to when we get fed up with it all.  

 

At this stage, we're not in a position to say any one approach is necessarily correct -- we're limited to best guesses from experts in disease and epidemiology.

 

Reiterating that the United States stands largely along among peers in discussion of ending suppression measures early. 

 

We have to decouple "suppression measures" from "shutting down the economy" since the two are neither mutually exclusive nor clearly defined. In one of the worst of worst case scenarios, we forge ahead in a futile effort to protect dividends, fail in that endeavor, and sustain a massive loss of life which was preventible. 

 

Any discussion about dependence on the government is fairly moot right now, in this condition. So long as we're in a state of pandemic, normal functions cannot fully resume. 

 

A lot of the discussion of sacrifice is other peoples' sacrifice. Medical workers, service workers, people who are the gears in the economy. The people calling for their return are not the ones taking the actual hit or assuming the actual risk.

 

As to your question, it looks fairly clear the flames were fanned to create the impression the workers willingly sought this risk out, rather than were presented with two terrible choices.

 

I've lived in Europe, I married a Brit, people there want to go back to work but are sensible. We, on the other hand, are less sensible. It is sensible to invest time and resources to suppressing spread of COVID-19.

 

Yes, people will get it. But fewer people. Fewer people is all we can do. We don't have the time or luxury of assigning a political motive to pandemic responses, because there is a pandemic currently happening, and we have to be adults and address it sanely.

 

Also, while everyone dies, I lost the love of my life at a young age. The last thing I want is friends who can relate. No one should suffer that, even terrible people. We have to mitigate the spread until we can ... and consequently ...

58 minutes ago, IndyPoolPlayer said:

That is assuming a vaccine can be developed. We've known of SARS for 20 years and as of yet there's no vaccine. We've known about HIV for over 40 years and there's no vaccine. It took decades to develop a viable vaccine for polio, granted that was back when medical research was not as good as it is now.

True. But a vaccine is not the only endgame here.

 

There's also the possibility we will identify a therapy that actually works and isn't heart attack causing like chloroquine, and we can move forward.

 

We might reach a point where more is known about the virus and/or herd immunity comes into play.

 

A vaccine is one of the ways we can pharmaceutically approach this, but it's not the only way. Scientists in every country are working on ways to treat and combat COVID-19. But because it's novel and because we know so little, we are still in the early stages of this and don't yet know what we will know later.

 

At this point, we just don't have the information to proceed aggressively and risk deaths in the millions. And when I say deaths in the millions, I mean someone reading this post losing their spouse/parent/sibling. It has already happened to people I know in real life. It's a horrible thing and I don't want anyone else to suffer. 

Edited by smartlypretty
a word

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Posted (edited)
54 minutes ago, CreditSucksNot said:

Exactly.  The problem is many of the masses are swallowing the Governor garbage that "we can re-open when we have it contained and a vaccine."  

 

The idiot needs to be recalled NV Governor actually said "when we have the virus contained" in his one hour hot air speech last night.  You CAN'T contain it.  He has destroyed more lives in NV than the virus.  I can't watch the local news anymore.  He deliberately shifts focus from the fact that never was more than half the ventilators available in the state used.  Of those used the majority were not virus patients.  68% of those diagnosed have recovered in NV. The statistics I saw yesterday said that there was no burden on the hospitals (yet he is still trying an unneeded field hospital) and that the majority of patients in ICU beds were NOT virus patients.  This has been controlled in NV but he doesn't want to cede the power he has wielded.  He doesn't care one bit how many lives he destroys in the process.  Even if they threw all the doors open on casinos and businesses tomorrow people don't have the means or desire to risk travel.  Even if they did SOMEONE will get the virus again.  Staying closed another 14/30/90 days won't change that.

 

Until antibody testing is widespread, it is not wise to make decisions with the faulty data that is available. NV is not testing enough to really know what is going on. I'm sorry you need a haircut.

Edited by hegemony

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Also, I'd add to that that there's an assumption the majority of people would like to rely on the government, and this is a huge windfall, etc etc.

 

Everyone wants this to end tomorrow. Everyone wants to go back out, not wear a mask, and know their paycheck is coming. No one is pro-pandemic (or very few) and I'd ask anyone who thinks people are keen on relying on Uncle Sam to pay their bills how that exactly tracks with most people not getting their miserly $1200 yet - versus the money they can count on earning normally.

 

For the most part, no working class people are making out like bandits here. Given the opportunity, everyone would choose "go back to real life" over "wake up every day not knowing if death or poverty happen today." It's a bizarre fantasy to think the working classes were eagerly anticipating a devastating pandemic for like, $600 a week for a few weeks. 

 

Literally everyone wants this over immediately. We just don't want to die, and know our deaths won't end it. 

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50 minutes ago, hegemony said:

Until antibody testing is widespread, it is not wise to make decisions with the faulty data that is available. NV is not testing enough to really know what is going on. I'm sorry you need a haircut.

Glad you wisely decided to walk back what you previously wrote in reply.

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49 minutes ago, hegemony said:

 

Until antibody testing is widespread, it is not wise to make decisions with the faulty data that is available. NV is not testing enough to really know what is going on. I'm sorry you need a haircut.

This is another possible tool in the toolbox ... when it's developed. If only all these politicians keen on "opening the economy" (which again, is vague and perhaps impossible anyway) would direct their energy towards getting things like antibody testing to their constituents, we'd be much more equipped to achieve those goals.

 

This matters because we're not tabling "doing the work" to do this, we're tabling "throw dishwashers and line cooks and bowling alley attendants at COVID-19." That's it. That's the plan. And it's objectively a terrible and amoral strategy, which is unlikely to yield dividends.

 

Whatever we recoup in lane fees and beer sales is gonna go right back into indigent bills at hospitals. So if the "many deaths" angle makes less sense, think of the "lost dollars" angle. 

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46 minutes ago, IndyPoolPlayer said:

Glad you wisely decided to walk back what you previously wrote in reply.

:LOL: you're so evenhanded. I can just imagine what would happen I ranted about the governor of Texas.

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47 minutes ago, smartlypretty said:

Literally everyone wants this over immediately. We just don't want to die, and know our deaths won't end it. 

The VAST majority of people are smart enough to realize that contracting COVID19 is NOT a death sentence.  The numbers bear this reality out...

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48 minutes ago, smartlypretty said:

Also, I'd add to that that there's an assumption the majority of people would like to rely on the government, and this is a huge windfall, etc etc.

 

I'd ask anyone who thinks people are keen on relying on Uncle Sam to pay their bills how that exactly tracks with most people not getting their miserly $1200 yet - versus the money they can count on earning normally.

How do you define "most people"??

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1 hour ago, smartlypretty said:

At this point, we just don't have the information to proceed aggressively and risk deaths in the millions. And when I say deaths in the millions, I mean someone reading this post losing their spouse/parent/sibling. It has already happened to people I know in real life. It's a horrible thing and I don't want anyone else to suffer. 

This statement makes my point.  There is NO process, NO information, NO vaccine and NO treatment that will prevent "anyone else to suffer."  Reality is they are going to lose their spouse/parent/sibling one day.  Corona virus, car accident, cancer, heart disease, natural causes.  It IS going to happen.  We all hope for later rather than sooner but nothing you or I can do will prevent it from ever happening.  The entire world cannot stay shut down for an undetermined amount of time crippling many industries and businesses hoping that no one else ever has consequences.  It is that same illogical thinking that causes people to sue after something bad happens under the theory "If I win this suit no one else will ever have this bad thing happen to them and suffer."  

 

No one wants to hear or admit it but the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.  

1 hour ago, hegemony said:

I'm sorry you need a haircut.

i don't need a haircut.  I got one the Saturday before we shut down.  I do elective surgeries as the bulk of my care and we need to resume providing them.  I cannot survive for several more months not earning money and stay in business.  This isn't about opening  bars, restaurants, nail salons, or casinos.

 

The data is a LOT more reliable than you are being lead to believe.  I get it direct from the medical community from people I have trusted for years.  The Governor in NV is relying on a failed casino CEO and an unlicensed gynecologist from Africa as his "experts" not people I want deciding my future.

 

If you want to continue to stay in isolation at home by all means do so.  You and everyone else has that right but I should not be forced to surrender everything and live in poverty for a decade or more because you are afraid to leave your home.  Sorry you don't trust yourself to know what is in your own best interest.

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That's kinda the point. The stimulus money is not enough to sustain people. State UI? Well, I guess, but there are way too many who haven't seen a penny yet. And even when they do, it is not enough. Getting people tested and tracking them to yield good data is essential for making informed decisions, that is all well and good. However, then what?

 

 

 

 

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50 minutes ago, CreditSucksNot said:

This statement makes my point.  There is NO process, NO information, NO vaccine and NO treatment that will prevent "anyone else to suffer."  Reality is they are going to lose their spouse/parent/sibling one day.  Corona virus, car accident, cancer, heart disease, natural causes.  It IS going to happen.  We all hope for later rather than sooner but nothing you or I can do will prevent it from ever happening.  The entire world cannot stay shut down for an undetermined amount of time crippling many industries and businesses hoping that no one else ever has consequences.  It is that same illogical thinking that causes people to sue after something bad happens under the theory "If I win this suit no one else will ever have this bad thing happen to them and suffer."  

 

No one wants to hear or admit it but the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.  

i don't need a haircut.  I got one the Saturday before we shut down.  I do elective surgeries as the bulk of my care and we need to resume providing them.  I cannot survive for several more months not earning money and stay in business.  This isn't about opening  bars, restaurants, nail salons, or casinos.

 

The data is a LOT more reliable than you are being lead to believe.  I get it direct from the medical community from people I have trusted for years.  The Governor in NV is relying on a failed casino CEO and an unlicensed gynecologist from Africa as his "experts" not people I want deciding my future.

 

If you want to continue to stay in isolation at home by all means do so.  You and everyone else has that right but I should not be forced to surrender everything and live in poverty for a decade or more because you are afraid to leave your home.  Sorry you don't trust yourself to know what is in your own best interest.

what does the origin of someone have to do with his or her qualifications? Oh... wait I think I know why you think that...

 

Strange you don't rant about all the UNR med school flunkies in the state.

 

I hear Amazon is hiring if you need to increase your income at this time. Good luck

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