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Why people with student debt are refusing to repay it

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1 hour ago, hdporter said:

 

I'm all for "simple" solutions -- where they're effective, they're typically the most expedient.  But I guess "effective" is in the eye of the beholder:

 

Interesting ... you'd relax a student debtor's obligation commitment so the loans would now be eligible for bankruptcy discharge?  ("same standards")  Are you suggesting that market rate loans would be an adequate trade-off?  (Does anyone see a higher $ volume of ultimate loan repayments arising out of this scheme?)

 

As far as the notion of "useless degrees", bear in mind that we're talking liberal arts education here, not trade schools.  I'd assume that under your proposal the MD that I saw yesterday wouldn't have qualified for undergraduate loan assistance.  (His undergraduate major, attending Williams College, was undertaken in the History and Religion department.

 

While some dismiss liberal arts education as a 4 year deferral from dealing with real world issues, I'm more of the mind that it prepares someone to uniquely and intelligently deal with the complexity and diversity of the world at large, and that the breadth of the education (among other things) enhances one's likely success in pursuing any subsequent career.

 

Unfortunately, there are a complex set of variables inherent in educational financing.  Any "simple" solution suffers from being exactly that.

It would only be relaxed to the degree of other unsecured debt obligations, but it would be much more costly for the unprepared borrower, since they would no longer benefit from the heavily subsidized interest rates. I'm unaware of what the market rate is for an unsecured loan for an unqualified borrower, but I can certainly guarantee it's over the 5-8% that student loans typically are. 

 

It seems that today's students have forgone all responsibility, therefore they need to pay the consequences. 

 

 

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7 hours ago, hdporter said:

 

...

 

As far as the notion of "useless degrees", bear in mind that we're talking liberal arts education here, not trade schools.  I'd assume that under your proposal the MD that I saw yesterday wouldn't have qualified for undergraduate loan assistance.  (His undergraduate major, attending Williams College, was undertaken in the History and Religion department.

 

While some dismiss liberal arts education as a 4 year deferral from dealing with real world issues, I'm more of the mind that it prepares someone to uniquely and intelligently deal with the complexity and diversity of the world at large, and that the breadth of the education (among other things) enhances one's likely success in pursuing any subsequent career.

...


Your other drivel aside, "useless" should be determined with what you do with your degree and not so much what you major in.  Your hypothetical MD graduated with at least 50 credit hours of hard core science, math, psychology or related courses.  Obviously they applied themselves as an undergraduate.

 

Life's a biatch, Jethro.  You solicit and accept a loan, you pay it back or suffer the consequences.  It really is that simple 

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35 minutes ago, PotO said:


Your other drivel aside, "useless" should be determined with what you do with your degree and not so much what you major in.  Your hypothetical MD graduated with at least 50 credit hours of hard core science, math, psychology or related courses.  Obviously they applied themselves as an undergraduate.

Directly to the point of my concern with BDF's suggestion that aid eligibility should be determined merely by one's declared major.

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1 hour ago, hdporter said:

Directly to the point of my concern with BDF's suggestion that aid eligibility should be determined merely by one's declared major.


To an extent, true.  It's not what you study, but what you do with it.  The difficulty exists in determining whether the person is like your MD who has an intelligent, solid plan or whether they are a moron who winds up $150,000 in student loan debt because they studied history with the goal of living in NYC and teaching 1st graders for $40,000 a year.  
 

It all boils down to IQ and personal accountability.  You live with the consequences of your actions.  There are few on CB who don't have direct experience with that.

 

Frankly, I don't see a problem with the program.  Cut the leeches off at the kneecaps.  Forgiving all student loans just emboldens freeloading.   Forgiving student loans means many banks will exit the student loan business.  Cutting off all student loans hurts a lot of innocent, deserving non-freeloaders.  Raising APRs to pay for student loan defaults / BK also hurts innocent people.  
 

Keep everything as it is and let the whiny little beaches cry.  

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22 hours ago, PotO said:

 

Keep everything as it is and let the whiny little beaches cry.  

As someone who has relatives with:  

 

that useless BA history degree, minimal loans under accelerated payment and a 6 figure unrelated job with a global corporation

 

an MD & PHD with several specialties and board certifications (just finished paying loans after 40! years) and near 7 figure annual income

 

a completely useless associates degree in culinary arts, $27k annual income and $80k+ in loans (including what the parents had to take out)

 

I must say, I agree with PotO. You signed for it and agreed to the terms. They make you do some sort of counseling now before giving you that first loan. There’s no excuses for not paying it and it shouldn’t be forgiven. They all get statements on a regular basis so it’s not like they don’t know how much debt they’re racking up. Don’t want the debt, go to a cheaper school, get a job and work at least part time to pay for it. Learn needs from wants. 
 

I do think a personal financial management course should be required for each freshman. Unfortunately, a lot of parents these days can’t or won’t handle money responsibly so there’s no way they can (or take the time to) teach their kids to do it properly. 
 

Ultimately, it’s what you do with the education you receive that counts. 

 

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The thing that gets me is, student loans aren't used for just education. It's used for partying, cars, and lord knows what else. The day the overage checks hit your accounts was a big party day. Borrowing so much just so you can live a lifestyle you can't afford isn't my problem. I was a student. I lived like a student. I lived like I student when I was a student do I didn't have to live like one for 25 years after. Nope. Not my problem and I'm going to tell anyone who wants to make it my problem to go lay a brick.

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58 minutes ago, Bad Doctor Frost said:

The thing that gets me is, student loans aren't used for just education. It's used for partying, cars, and lord knows what else. The day the overage checks hit your accounts was a big party day. Borrowing so much just so you can live a lifestyle you can't afford isn't my problem. I was a student. I lived like a student. I lived like I student when I was a student do I didn't have to live like one for 25 years after. Nope. Not my problem and I'm going to tell anyone who wants to make it my problem to go lay a brick.

 

Can't fix stupid.  Especially if it's hereditary.

 

It's almost impossible for anybody but one's parents to reel in their piss-poor financial habits, but when the parents themselves are clusterfooks, what can you do other than hold them accountable.

 

My youngest son is 18 and off to the University of Texas at Austin for his first year of university and independent living.  He believes he's an adult. Financially, he seems very responsible, but there was an issue a short while ago with a $2,000+ coat he wanted.  A fooking coat -- $2,000.

 

So, we had a nice little father warden - son confinee chat just recently.  Eventually he came out with the bullshite theory of how he's an adult and can make independent decisions and I should trust him.  I then pointed out a few rather inconvenient facts.  First, we have this thing called the Uniform Code of Military Family Justice.  Under the UCFJ, I am the ultimate decision maker.  Period.  I may ask for his opinion and give weight to it, but in the end I will discuss this with my wife and I will make the ultimate decision.  As for trust, in my line of work you never trust anybody ... anytime ... anywhere. Ever.  It's always trust, but verify.  So I will trust his financial decisions, but his credit cards all have a $500 limit.  I monitor them every day.  He gets a monthly spending allowance, and of that he is required to save a minimum of 50%, 1/2 of which is to be invested.  1/4 is long-term savings and the remaining is your typical emergency fund.  I monitor all accounts on a daily basis.  I anticipate getting to the point where this is unnecessary.

 

He knows there are certain rules that carry extreme punishment.  For example, knocking up his girlfriend or failing his classes.  If that happens, all his funding is reduced to $0, he returns home and he can enroll in one of two programs:  Sally Struthers School of Barbering or the Sally Struthers School of Bicycle Repair.  Otherwise, he will GTFO of my house and find a bridge abutment he can live under.  Now, hopefully he will be motivated by love, self-respect and common sense, but people need to understand what, precisely, the consequences of certain actions will be.  When he gets to the point where I do not have to provide for his education, food housing or related expenses and is totally independent, the odds are he is on the solid path to not being a major fook-up.  

 

Not only are the kids who blow their student loan money on partying re ... -- Oopss, can't use that word here -- but so are their parents for not exercising the necessary parental control and oversight.  They both deserve to get FITA.    

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10 hours ago, PotO said:

My youngest son is 18 and off to the University of Texas at Austin for his first year of university and independent living.  He believes he's an adult. Financially, he seems very responsible, but there was an issue a short while ago with a $2,000+ coat he wanted.  A fooking coat -- $2,000.

Tell him to wait a season and then go to Last Call...will likely find something similar (if not the same) for many multiples of hundreds less.  One of my favorite long coats came from there more than 15 years ago.  Original price was not far off from the $2K price point mentioned here...but even in mid-December, I got a long leather coat with fox fur (not to be confused with faux fur) for less than $300. 

 

'grats on the Austin selection.  If he is not living on campus or within walking distance, look for some of the hidden steals in West Lake Hills or Rollingwood.  They don't have those stupid plastic bag bans so you can still take groceries home in useful bags.  There is also a small pocket of unincorporated Travis County just off of Bee Caves Road that contributes to the lower prices precisely because it is NOT WLH or Rollingwood (and ALSO not City of Austin).  Taxes are cheaper and the independent landlords often pass that on to their tenants.  This includes the neighborhood behind that Flagship Randalls location that is used for voting...

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Hold up. What kind of coat costs $2000 that a male would wear? We're not talking about winter gear here, are we? Because...I live in the freakin' tundra and manage just fine with a $500 North Face cheapie. I thought about a Canada Goose but, even when it's -20, how much time do I spend outside to justify it? My office is heated. My home is heated. In the 7 minutes it takes to get between home and work, I have heated seats and heated steering wheel and sweat my arse off already. Heck, it was 18 when I left this morning and the forecasted high is 34. I'm rockin' a spring coat. A $2000 coat in Texas? It better be made from the finest furs. 🤣

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3 hours ago, Bad Doctor Frost said:

Hold up. What kind of coat costs $2000 that a male would wear? We're not talking about winter gear here, are we? Because...I live in the freakin' tundra and manage just fine with a $500 North Face cheapie. I thought about a Canada Goose but, even when it's -20, how much time do I spend outside to justify it? My office is heated. My home is heated. In the 7 minutes it takes to get between home and work, I have heated seats and heated steering wheel and sweat my arse off already. Heck, it was 18 when I left this morning and the forecasted high is 34. I'm rockin' a spring coat. A $2000 coat in Texas? It better be made from the finest furs. 🤣

You ask a question that I cannot answer...but I know there are some really nice bomber jackets out there that have hefty price tags before the sales kick in.  And...it is not about justifying at those price points...it IS all about the WANT element ;)

 

And yes, I concur about heated seats and steering wheels being da bomb LOL!  Got those in the F-Type and even the first level of the three settings is quite toasty to the back and butt. 

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3 hours ago, Bad Doctor Frost said:

Hold up. What kind of coat costs $2000 that a male would wear? We're not talking about winter gear here, are we? Because...I live in the freakin' tundra and manage just fine with a $500 North Face cheapie. I thought about a Canada Goose but, even when it's -20, how much time do I spend outside to justify it? My office is heated. My home is heated. In the 7 minutes it takes to get between home and work, I have heated seats and heated steering wheel and sweat my arse off already. Heck, it was 18 when I left this morning and the forecasted high is 34. I'm rockin' a spring coat. A $2000 coat in Texas? It better be made from the finest furs. 🤣

A well made cashmere coat could run that much or more.  There's nothing wrong with North Face and at $500, I don't consider it cheap but depending on what you do for a living, sporting outerwear might be too casual.  If Pot's kid was heading off to his first year in investment banking, then a $2k coat wouldn't necessarily be an unreasonable purchase.  A freshman declaring financial independence?  FOH.

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1 hour ago, Allkindabroke said:

A well made cashmere coat could run that much or more.  There's nothing wrong with North Face and at $500, I don't consider it cheap but depending on what you do for a living, sporting outerwear might be too casual.  If Pot's kid was heading off to his first year in investment banking, then a $2k coat wouldn't necessarily be an unreasonable purchase.  A freshman declaring financial independence?  FOH.

I work in finance for one of the largest tech companies in the world, and I have never seen a $2000 coat.

 

HOWEVER...this is a PNW-based tech firm and they tell everyone during the new hire process that they don't drug test, so you can take that for what it's worth. It may be on the casual side 🤣

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My favorite coat is an old, dark green, military surplus, lined long coat with large buttons and belt in the middle. Must weigh about 15 pounds. Huge pockets inside and out. I think I paid $10 for it at a Salvation Army back in college. It was really great for MC riding. And dates riding in the back could stuff their hands deep in the pockets. :)

 

Couldn't afford leathers.

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20 hours ago, Bad Doctor Frost said:

The thing that gets me is, student loans aren't used for just education. It's used for partying, cars, and lord knows what else. The day the overage checks hit your accounts was a big party day. Borrowing so much just so you can live a lifestyle you can't afford isn't my problem. I was a student. I lived like a student. I lived like I student when I was a student do I didn't have to live like one for 25 years after. Nope. Not my problem and I'm going to tell anyone who wants to make it my problem to go lay a brick.

I must have missed out, because I didn't see any of my student loans. It went directly to the university to pay for tuition and other expenses such as books.

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4 hours ago, Bad Doctor Frost said:

I work in finance for one of the largest tech companies in the world, and I have never seen a $2000 coat.

 

HOWEVER...this is a PNW-based tech firm and they tell everyone during the new hire process that they don't drug test, so you can take that for what it's worth. It may be on the casual side 🤣


I work in tech and never seen a $2K coat either, but I have seen plenty of $300 flip flops...

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43 minutes ago, dvd said:


I work in tech and never seen a $2K coat either, but I have seen plenty of $300 flip flops...

I haven't seen a $2K coat, but a $2K dinner jacket that I was drooling over when I was a college student. Needless to say, I didn't have the dough.

 

Btw, I think the headline of this thread is something you would find on CNN or Fox News. Of all friends and relatives (rich and poor) I know with student loans, only one is delinquent. Maybe that's an anomaly, but I wouldn't say people are refusing to pay.

Edited by pronto

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10 hours ago, Bad Doctor Frost said:

Hold up. What kind of coat costs $2000 that a male would wear? We're not talking about winter gear here, are we? Because...I live in the freakin' tundra and manage just fine with a $500 North Face cheapie. I thought about a Canada Goose but, even when it's -20, how much time do I spend outside to justify it? My office is heated. My home is heated. In the 7 minutes it takes to get between home and work, I have heated seats and heated steering wheel and sweat my arse off already. Heck, it was 18 when I left this morning and the forecasted high is 34. I'm rockin' a spring coat. A $2000 coat in Texas? It better be made from the finest furs. 🤣

 

 

Quote

The other day -- pre 2019-nCoV -- I head over to HSBC on my monthly money laundering excursion and my wife and son tag along hoping that after a nice dinner out (and believe me, any dinner out is nice because my wife cooks like shiat) I'll stop at this SKP Mall they keep telling me about.  My son says he needs a new winter coat because the one he's had for the past couple of years is suddenly no good because a button fell off and had to be sewn back on.  

 

I'm thinking that avoiding this mall is the best option.  All malls in Beijing are dead because absolutely nobody goes shopping in malls anymore -- they are like ghost towns.  Now people do all their shopping -- from groceries to clothing -- online with 30-minute guaranteed delivery.  But then reality hits.  Since Kat's angry at me, the only way I'm getting laid is by being nice to my wife and unless I at least pretend to consider buying my son a coat he will never STFU.  So we go to SKP Mall.

 

Well, it's massive.  It's about the size of Tyson's Corner Mall but more condensed.  Every single shop inside is a luxury brand -- from Gucci to Rolex.  Absolutely no normal brands at all.  Need a book bag?  $575 TUMI.  A winter coat?  $1,800 Burberry or, on the cheaper end, $1,799 Canadian Goose Shiat (or whatever it's called).  What's really weird is that this mall is totally fooking packed with people.  And I'm standing out like a sore thumb being the only non-Chinese in the whole mall and then wearing normal Levi's (without the "designer" rips and tears) and a $149 black coat I've owned for at least 7 years.  


Of course, my son steers us to a crowded Burberry and a $1,800 coat.  All the while I'm thinking -- this will end in violence and a court martial.  He likes this coat and it's $1,888, but on sale for 47% off -- $888.  So all the time my son's giving me this b.s. sales pitch about how this coat not only looks good, but is very functional and -- get this -- the price is special at $888.  Of course, never mind that it has the Burberry brand right on the sleeve and as soon as he steps off campus in it in the US he will get stabbed and robbed, but also that $888 is about 10 times more expensive than what a good coat should cost.  He doesn't get the hint when I tell him "Ok, let's go home and I'll think about it" and continues his sales pitch and I'm about 3 seconds away from giving him the "STFU-or-I'll-leave-you-in-a-bloody-mess-right-here-and-now ultimatum" when he blurts out that his classmates mom is the general manager of the mall and can get us a great discount.  Five minutes later his classmate's mom shows up and talks with the shop manager and the price is $588 plus an additional $200 tax rebate if we can send her a copy of a passport with a valid visa in it.  
 

We get the coat.  Still double what I think we should pay for a stupid coat.  But now I finally know what "SKP" Mall stands for -- Stupid Kook People Mall.  


The people in Vegas Chinatown are welfare rats.  In Beijing there are more multi-millionaires than sand in the Nevada desert. 

 

Burberry.  A simple black down-filled coat.  I can tell you right now the feathers inside that shiatty coat must be from that goose that laid the golden fooking eggs.  
 

One of the few nice things about being where I am is that you can beat your kids and the law doesn't give a rat's arse.

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2 hours ago, Cosmos Human said:

I’ve seen expensive coats such as Monclear (spelling?).  Canada Goose are up there in price as well. 


Close by the Burberry shop was a Canada Goose one.  It was a few dollars cheaper.  But my son wouldn't bite on that brand.  Maybe because it didn't have a nice "Look at me I'm wearing a Burberry" patch on the sleeve.  

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11 hours ago, centex said:

...

 

'grats on the Austin selection.  If he is not living on campus or within walking distance, look for some of the hidden steals in West Lake Hills or Rollingwood.  They don't have those stupid plastic bag bans so you can still take groceries home in useful bags.  There is also a small pocket of unincorporated Travis County just off of Bee Caves Road that contributes to the lower prices precisely because it is NOT WLH or Rollingwood (and ALSO not City of Austin).  Taxes are cheaper and the independent landlords often pass that on to their tenants.  This includes the neighborhood behind that Flagship Randalls location that is used for voting...


The first year he will likely be on campus.  
 

We might end up getting a house there.  We like Texas as a retirement spot and if we establish residency we can save about $30,000 a year on tuition.  

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2 hours ago, PotO said:

Burberry.  A simple black down-filled coat.  I can tell you right now the feathers inside that shiatty coat must be from that goose that laid the golden fooking eggs.  
 

One of the few nice things about being where I am is that you can beat your kids and the law doesn't give a rat's arse.

ol47T60.jpg?1

 

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4 hours ago, pronto said:

I must have missed out, because I didn't see any of my student loans. It went directly to the university to pay for tuition and other expenses such as books.

They go to the school first but any excess ("overage checks") is disbursed to the students to spend as they please. My University had a slight scandal because they got in bed with a company called HigherOne to handle their overage, which put the excess funds on high-fee debit cards as the default option, with paper checks or direct deposit being options. Students max out their financial aid and end up pocketing a few thousand every semester to spend on partying or whatever they want. Over 4+ years, this can add up to an extra $20-30k in student loans that didn't have anything to do with education. 

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1 hour ago, Kat58 said:

ol47T60.jpg?1

 


If that's the alternative, a cheap slutty flowered jacket that turns you into a porch surfer, I'll give him $4k to buy two Burberry coats. 

Edited by PotO

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My sister is a nurse without student loan debt. She worked during school, and when school was over, she picked up all the OT she wanted at the hospital, which included many holidays. And some of those holidays included even more extra pay on top of the OT.

 

10 years later, she's got coworkers who became nurses the same time she did, and they still have student loan debt, and cry about it all the time. Boneheads saw what my sister was doing, but trips to the beach, or turkey dinner was more important. 

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51 minutes ago, TheVig said:

My sister is a nurse without student loan debt. She worked during school, and when school was over, she picked up all the OT she wanted at the hospital, which included many holidays. And some of those holidays included even more extra pay on top of the OT.

 

10 years later, she's got coworkers who became nurses the same time she did, and they still have student loan debt, and cry about it all the time. Boneheads saw what my sister was doing, but trips to the beach, or turkey dinner was more important. 

I'm starting to believe that there is an inverse relationship between the amount borrowed and ambition.

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