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hegemony

Apple’s Latest Invention: Yes, It’s a Credit Card

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7 hours ago, hegemony said:

the brakes were put on MArcus some time ago as previously posted somewhere here on CB. IIRC the brakes were being applied even before the apple deal was announced.

 

They still send me almost daily e-mails begin me to accept their loan offer.  

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2 hours ago, PotO said:

 

They still send me almost daily e-mails begin me to accept their loan offer.  

They are not as annoying as upgrade but, yeah...daily emails.  I would have been tempted to take their money if they had provided a competitive term.  They didn't and since I am not a salamander desperate for funds, I just hit delete...

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Is the Apple Card reporting on anyone's credit reports yet?  I think I'm in my 4th billing cycle now, and it still isn't showing on any of the Big 3 CRA reports.

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1 hour ago, hegemony said:

Now, tell me how a machine differentiates in terms of gender discrimination. Entities with six or more choices can be combined into an algorithm to approve or reject.  If Corelogic sees additional information in her files, Goldman Sachs will definitely apply it to this risk.

 

The machine is not capable of partisan or bias.

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15 minutes ago, MP80 said:

Now, tell me how a machine differentiates in terms of gender discrimination. Entities with six or more choices can be combined into an algorithm to approve or reject.  If Corelogic sees additional information in her files, Goldman Sachs will definitely apply it to this risk.

 

The machine is not capable of partisan or bias.

AI is as partisan and biased as its programmers.

 

I might try to replicate his results. Mrs. H. hasn't applied yet. Her scores are higher than mine.

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28 minutes ago, Burdell said:

Is the Apple Card reporting on anyone's credit reports yet?

No.

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29 minutes ago, hegemony said:

AI is as partisan and biased as its programmers.

 

I might try to replicate his results. Mrs. H. hasn't applied yet. Her scores are higher than mine.

Haha. I'm betting doing things in closed doors and not opened publicly. But that's human not an automaton.

 

Back on topic... Assuming your FICO is 850, you are also experiencing a ChexSystems error or a land transaction dispute with a Title Company in the Credco File, her husband doesn't know that.

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2 hours ago, MP80 said:

Haha. I'm betting doing things in closed doors and not opened publicly. But that's human not an automaton.

 

Back on topic... Assuming your FICO is 850, you are also experiencing a ChexSystems error or a land transaction dispute with a Title Company in the Credco File, her husband doesn't know that.

there have been numerous studies that AI, facial recon, etc. suffer from the same predilections as the people who program them.

 

that is not to say GS is doing anything wrong here. It could simply be that length of history or some other factor is weighted heavily in its modeling and even a small difference on one factor can lead to large outcome differences.

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1 hour ago, hegemony said:

here have been numerous studies that AI, facial recon, etc. suffer from the same predilections as the people who program them.

Persons who entrust or neglect them should be held liable for criminal negligence.

 

1 hour ago, hegemony said:

that is not to say GS is doing anything wrong here. It could simply be that length of history or some other factor is weighted heavily in its modeling and even a small difference on one factor can lead to large outcome differences.

Concur in favor.

Edited by MP80

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4 hours ago, hegemony said:

that is not to say GS is doing anything wrong here. It could simply be that length of history or some other factor is weighted heavily in its modeling and even a small difference on one factor can lead to large outcome differences.


Some people were born Neanderthals.  Hansson probably has two strikes against him -- being a whiny little biatch, too.

 

Your credit score does not have much, if anything, to do with approval.  We see every day here on CB how people with an 850 get rejected whereas folks with a 650 get approved.  It's also unlikely a credit score itself directly influences your starting limit.  When GS pulled mine, it was 849 and I got a lower starting limit than some buttflake on MyFuKO who got $40k.
 

Having a joint bank account or having all joint assets also means squat.  WTF is Wozniak thinking?  Just goes to show that extra chromosomes are equal opportunity inhabitants.  Even famous entrepreneurs aren't immune.  
 

I'm sure that if their wives grew a richard or if they slice their richard off the credit application results would be the same.  But you don't get 15 minutes of free publicity for doing that. 


 

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Goldman Sachs has now released a statement in denial of these allegations.

 

"In its statement, Goldman Sachs says that Apple Card credit decisions are made on an individual basis and the credit line is individual to each applicant.

They say that each application is evaluated independently and factors like personal credit scores, income level, and debt levels are used to make a decision. The statement reads “Based on these factors, it is possible for two family members to receive significantly different credit decisions. In all cases, we have not and will not make decisions based on factors like gender”.

 

https://9to5mac.com/2019/11/11/goldman-sachs-releases-statement-in-response-to-sexist-apple-card-allegations/

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28 minutes ago, MP80 said:

Goldman Sachs has now released a statement in denial of these allegations.

 

"In its statement, Goldman Sachs says that Apple Card credit decisions are made on an individual basis and the credit line is individual to each applicant.

They say that each application is evaluated independently and factors like personal credit scores, income level, and debt levels are used to make a decision. The statement reads “Based on these factors, it is possible for two family members to receive significantly different credit decisions. In all cases, we have not and will not make decisions based on factors like gender”.

 

https://9to5mac.com/2019/11/11/goldman-sachs-releases-statement-in-response-to-sexist-apple-card-allegations/

It's about time we had a good victim story about this card.

 

Edited by cv91915

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On ‎11‎/‎10‎/‎2019 at 10:14 AM, hegemony said:

AI is as partisan and biased as its programmers.

 

I might try to replicate his results. Mrs. H. hasn't applied yet. Her scores are higher than mine.

AI's decisions aren't made by programmers. That's really the benefit and scary part of AI. You train it by feeding it millions of data pieces. Like what kinds of stuff the consumer has previously bought. It's highly likely that men spent a lot more on tech stuff that is correlated with Apple sales than women and a trained AI is going to skew CLs in the direction that provides more spend capability for those more likely to by Apple crap. Unlikely gender is specifically a component of that data set. However, highly likely that there is a strong correlation between large Apple $ purchases and gender given the relative dearth of female nerds.

 

BTW, the Woz (Apple co-founder) and wife saw the same thing.

 

 

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I like the design and innovation of the Apple Card. Except for the iPhone and iCloud services, I have not purchased any products from Apple. So to say (allegedly) that artificial intelligence is considered to a decision on the feasibility of consumer purchases ( will get approved high credit ) sounds beyond a deep or complicated and obscure stratagem. 

 

As I said I didn't buy anything, they approved me for $15,000.

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1 hour ago, cashnocredit said:

AI's decisions aren't made by programmers. That's really the benefit and scary part of AI. You train it by feeding it millions of data pieces. Like what kinds of stuff the consumer has previously bought. It's highly likely that men spent a lot more on tech stuff that is correlated with Apple sales than women and a trained AI is going to skew CLs in the direction that provides more spend capability for those more likely to by Apple crap. Unlikely gender is specifically a component of that data set. However, highly likely that there is a strong correlation between large Apple $ purchases and gender given the relative dearth of female nerds.

 

BTW, the Woz (Apple co-founder) and wife saw the same thing.

 

 

AI is programed by someone at some point. it is not intelligent design.

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30 minutes ago, hegemony said:

AI is programed by someone at some point. it is not intelligent design.

Machine learning algos are notorious for producing effective results but with biases. It's not the programmer that designs them to have biases but that the learning algorithms tend to be very good at reflecting the data they are fed and can make good, but very indirect correlations. Credit scoring, which has to prove it's not biased against statutory protected classes, (an area of some conflict depending on what one uses to measure bias) gets a lot of customization to make sure it doesn't correlate to age, sex, race, etc in an unfair way.

 

Unanticipated machine learning bias has bit a lot of the biggies (Google, FB, etc) due to the "just show me the bucks" machine learning approach initially rolled out.

 

https://sloanreview.mit.edu/article/the-risk-of-machine-learning-bias-and-how-to-prevent-it/

https://arxiv.org/abs/1810.01943

 

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never said the programmers intended there to be biases. but biased because of garbage in garbage out assumptions and data.

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2 hours ago, hegemony said:

never said the programmers intended there to be biases. but biased because of garbage in garbage out assumptions and data.

I  agree and it's probably going to get worse. I suspect the lopsided Apple Card CLs between men/women is occurring in many other areas well beyond credit as big data as AI and ML, spread. In major part because it can be invisible for a time. The G in GIGO is growing exponentially.

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2 hours ago, cashnocredit said:

I  agree and it's probably going to get worse. I suspect the lopsided Apple Card CLs between men/women is occurring in many other areas well beyond credit as big data as AI and ML, spread. In major part because it can be invisible for a time. The G in GIGO is growing exponentially.


I'm sure there is "bias" in just about everything in the credit world, if not the world in general.  If someone's goal is to eliminate all forms of bias and discrimination, they are tilting at windmills with a shite covered chopstick.  
 

From a credit pimp perspective, I see a lot of disparities when I look at differences between my credit profile and application results and that of my wife's, my sister-in-law's and even my mom's.  Women tend to earn less than men so it's not surprising that this can affect credit limits and from there higher limits beget higher limits.  We all know that.  According to my wife and my mom, owning more than one credit card is a waste of plastic.  And they are perfectly fine with that one card being an AU card on their husband's account.  
 

Up until somewhat recently, stay-at-home mothers had limited credit opportunities.  I know many families where the wife isn't on the mortgage or even car loan.  I know even more families that when it's time to take a small personal loan, it's the husband who does it.  It can not be at all unusual for the husband to have more depth and breadth to their credit profile than the wife and that, after all, is what lenders love to see.  Every year and a half we take a long extended-family vacation and split the costs with my sister-in-law.  Rather than dip into savings, I get a personal loan from USAA.  I've had now about 14 of them.  My wife has done it only twice, mainly because I insisted.  The last time she applied the application went to underwriting and they called to ask her questions and request paystubs.  My last one was a few days ago and it went to underwriting.  I called and the underwriter took a look and said, "Sir, this is by far the easiest decision I've made in a long time.  If you want to increase the loan amount up to our maximum, it would be also approved."  No muss, no fuss.    
 

Lenders could care less whether you have a richard or not.  They look at cold, hard data.  The data doesn't consider gender (or other factors).  Now you can say that gender is a factor, but it really isn't gender -- it's life choices.  What about the LGBTXYZ landscape these days?  You can have have a family with two male parents.  If one is a stay-at-home parent with all the characteristics of the traditional wife, he could end up with the credit profile some women might have.  So when Apple Card gives him a limit of $10,000 versus the $40,000 they gave his partner, where exactly does the gender discrimination come into play?  The simple answer is, it doesn't.  Unless one is a whiny little biatch.  
 

Life is real, get over it.  Can't handle it?  God invented tall mountains and cliffs.

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my spouse's limits are lower than my limits even though her income is 10 times mine, but that is because she doesn't bother much with CLI requests or combos.

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24 minutes ago, hegemony said:

my spouse's limits are lower than my limits even though her income is 10 times mine, but that is because she doesn't bother much with CLI requests or combos.

 

No, no, no, no, no, Hege!  You are doing it wrong, dammit!

 

You are never going to get in the papers for your 15 minutes of fame unless you play the whiny little biatch card.  Remember, the only reason her limits are lower is because you have a richard and she doesn't.  

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