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Maximum $ value for Etihad miles?


mizliz1011
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Greetings: I had 106,000 remaining Etihad points (had already redeemed 240K) and I was in the middle of the last online transaction of redemption with the balance posted in the corner of my screen.  It was 6/30, 3.30pm so I knew I had to use them before midnight.  What I did not expect was that they made their *cut-off on Abu Dhabi time*  which was 8 hours earlier (it was not mentioned in their reward info, BTW).  As I pushed the purchase button, the screen started blinking and it said I had no miles to redeem.  

 

I tried to work this out via customer service but they won't bend so I am taking them to small claims court in NYC- Agony.  They do have a NYC office so I can use that address to appeal and they will have to be in accord with NYC laws. However, since I can't ask for the miles back (no space on the small claims form for this) I am looking for a way to value the miles at MAXIMUM value.  Does anyone here know the program well enough to orient me to how to value them using an honest valuation of them at max redemption value?  Since they transfer 1:1 MR AmEx I could use that parameter as well (which is how I bought them originally).  

 

I would appreciate any suggestions or outline of how to value them, again at max redemption value $$$.  I am willing to be perfectly straightforward about this but I don't want to give the value away.  And I am pissed off in spades. Thanks so much, in advance.  Lizzie

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This is perfect, CV.  I did not find this on my search of the internet.  I will use the AmEx MR rate, since that is how I purchased them, at .019/point , and will sue them for $1,976 plus out of pocket costs for fee for small claims court.  

 

This is about what I thought/hoped it would be.  Well worth a subway ride to hell for SCCourt.  I may not even find a lawyer on the other side and win by default.  That would be lovely.  However, let this be a warning that they don't play fair.  Abu Dhabi time for a cut off in points will not play well in Small Claims Court I project.  

 

I have never lost in small claims court.  xoxo Thanks so much. 

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I am curious to see how this turns out.  Hopefully you win by default but I doubt that will happen. (I doubt they would ignore it).  I am hoping you already scoured the program T&Cs prior to undertaking this action, as it wouldn't surprise me if there were something in small print saying they expire at xx time Abu Dhabi time.

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Concur that the paperwork and fine print likely outlined the time zone of record, just as the online bill payment options for credit cards outline the time a payment must post by in order to be 'same day.'

 

I would NOT be banking on a claim that 'Abu Dhabi time won't play well' in court...even the junior varsity judges tend to go by strict interpretation of an Agreement.  However, I am also curious whether the Agreement obligates you to arbitrate. 

 

Do NOT expect this to remain in small claims.  I would reasonably expect to see this removed to another Court, so I would suggest to begin boning up on procedure for federal court. 

 

On edit...beyond preparing for another Court, you need to be working on your response to the Motion to Dismiss for Want of Jurisdiction.  I went and looked at the Terms and Conditions.  Beyond the miles having no cash value, they ALSO have the following language:



12. Law and Jurisdiction
  • 12.1. These Terms and Conditions and the relationship between us and you are governed by UAE laws as applied in the Emirate of Abu Dhabi and laws of Abu Dhabi. By completing and submitting an Enrolment Form to join the Etihad Guest programme, you are agreeing to submit to the exclusive jurisdiction of Abu Dhabi courts.

Edited by centex
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Another thing, although a bit late at this point, is you have probably made yourself persona non grata in terms of their reward program going forward...although I am guessing you aren't worried about that at this point.

 

Also, you can't go by TPG in terms of his valuation of points because he even admits it is subjective.  You may be able to argue the value of the MR, but I would also bet that within those same T&C they state the points have no cash value...

 

I am assuming you tried multiple avenues of customer service/executive customer service/office of the CEO before going down this path...I would have expected those to yield far better results than a lawsuit.  Of course this is based on my experiences with US companies, not with one in UAE.

Edited by CTSoxFan
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Actually judges do not go by strict interpretation of the agreement.  Chase, AMEX and many others have been forced to cough up money for rewards when they have closed CC accounts even though they place into the agreements that rewards have no cash value.  Chase even gives you 30 days to transfer out UR's after they shut you down now because they've been sued by MSers so many times.

 

For Ethiad,  I would place a cash value of $0.02/mile.  There is nothing subjective about it.  That is the price they sell them for on their website. https://storefront.points.com/etihad-guest/en-US/buy

 

"Miles may be purchased for $0.02 USD per mile."

 

Pretty difficult to argue to a justice that miles have no value when they can be freely purchased on the website for this specific value.

 

Generally these companies will contact you prior to the hearing.  Ask them for the $0.02/mile in a cashiers check, or offer to accept reinstatement of the miles plus 50% for your hassles.  They might be more inclined to go that route since it's easier for them and no true cash outlay.

Edited by Konrad2012
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On 9/13/2018 at 3:18 PM, Konrad2012 said:

Actually judges do not go by strict interpretation of the agreement.  Chase, AMEX and many others have been forced to cough up money for rewards when they have closed CC accounts even though they place into the agreements that rewards have no cash value.  Chase even gives you 30 days to transfer out UR's after they shut you down now because they've been sued by MSers so many times.

 

For Ethiad,  I would place a cash value of $0.02/mile.  There is nothing subjective about it.  That is the price they sell them for on their website. https://storefront.points.com/etihad-guest/en-US/buy

 

"Miles may be purchased for $0.02 USD per mile."

 

Pretty difficult to argue to a justice that miles have no value when they can be freely purchased on the website for this specific value.

 

Generally these companies will contact you prior to the hearing.  Ask them for the $0.02/mile in a cashiers check, or offer to accept reinstatement of the miles plus 50% for your hassles.  They might be more inclined to go that route since it's easier for them and no true cash outlay.

 

Agree that the $0.02 is a better value as it is a factual basis for compare, however just because they sell miles to you however doesn't mean they have a cash value, as they cannot be redeemed for that cash value, regardless of whatever equivalent they may have in terms of redemption.  The actual value of a mile can vary significantly (as you well know).  CC rewards do have a cash value as they can be redeemed for cash or a cash equivalent (statement credit, etc.)

 

The difference in your examples is THEY (Chase, etc.) closed the account.  In this case, it is the customer who made the decision not to action the miles within the specified time frame (not making any judgement on whether or not the UAE time component is fair).  She had plenty of time/notice to take action and didn't.  When the CC company shuts you down it is generally without warning.  Big difference to the argument. 

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Cash Value is a legal and financial term, it doesn't mean that something necessarily has to be convertible into cash.

 

The paint on your wall has an Actual Cash Value, which is the Replaceable Cash Value minus depreciation.  So does the roof on your house.  As you know, if you scrape the paint off your walls it cannot actually be converted into cash.

 

The Actual Cash Value of an Ethiad mile to me would be the Replaceable Cash Value, which I can document to a Court as $0.02/mile.

 

Where is screwed is, "Unused Etihad Guest Miles will expire on the last date of the month in which they are due to expire, at 23:30 (GST time)."  That is probably more damning than the Law and Jurisdiction clause of the contract since Liz is a NY resident and Etihad Airways has registered with the State of NY.

 

Current Entity Name: ETIHAD AIRWAYS
DOS ID #: 3342680
Initial DOS Filing Date: MARCH 31, 2006
County: QUEENS
Jurisdiction: ALL OTHERS
Entity Type: FOREIGN BUSINESS CORPORATION
Current Entity Status: ACTIVE

 

Selected Entity Address Information
DOS Process (Address to which DOS will mail process if accepted on behalf of the entity)
C/O CORPORATION SERVICE COMPANY
80 STATE STREET
ALBANY, NEW YORK, 12207-2543
Chief Executive Officer
MICHAEL STONER
600 FIFTH AVENUE, 20TH FLOOR
ROCKEFELLER CENTER
NEW YORK, NEW YORK, 10020
Principal Executive Office
ETIHAD AIRWAYS
600 FIFTH AVENUE, 20TH FLOOR
ROCKEFELLER CENTER
NEW YORK, NEW YORK, 10020
Registered Agent
CORPORATION SERVICE COMPANY
80 STATE STREET
ALBANY, NEW YORK, 12207-2543

 

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