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The debate about ID and credit card security, See ID, signatures, etc

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I sometimes think about this. This board seems split into two camps: First one being "Showing ID violates cardholder agreements and does not fraud-proof a transaction," the other is "I write SEE ID in signature field, only an salamander wouldnt show ID, and I am surprised how infrequently I am asked for it."..

 

We maybe touched on the topic in Visa and MC policies, but apparently American Express says it's okay to ask for in some cases, I gathered from reading...

 

This poster's own informed decision on the matter favors the "Don't show ID" argument, but that is just me. I did much reading and I arrived at that conclusion.

 

So. What say you?

 

Discuss.

 

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk

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I always sign my cards, and if I am asked for ID, I show it without saying anything. I rarely get asked.

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I always sign my cards, and if I am asked for ID, I show it without saying anything. I rarely get asked.

Same. I know some people refuse or think it's rude, but I really don't care to make a scene for something so small. Radio Shack is the only place 'round here that will ask for it to match the signature you give them. Merchants aren't supposed to accept an unsigned card or one that says SEE ID unless you sign it in front of them and it matches identification.

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Not sure why there's much debate on this topic. Someone who has stolen your credit card almost certainly won't take the time to also create a valid-looking government-issued ID with your name on it. Showing an ID (consistently) would decrease credit card fraud drastically.

 

I have to show my Driver's License to buy beer - so the argument that it's 'insecure' to show your ID to a merchant is ridiculous at best.

Edited by moadikum

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It is true that showing ID violates cardholder agreements and does not fraud-proof a transaction.

 

It is also annoying (at least to me).

 

But if the request comes from the CC issuer (which it often does), not complying will probably get your card restricted "for your protection", which is even more annoying.

 

If you need the MS (the sort of transaction most likely to trigger an ID request), best policy is probably to comply.

 

Otherwise try a different card, a different merchant, or pay with a $100 bill. Or maybe a shoebox full of old, crumpled $1s. Dollar coins were ideal for this, before the supply dried up.

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Not sure why there's much debate on this topic. Someone who has stolen your credit card almost certainly won't take the time to also create a valid-looking government-issued ID with your name on it. Showing an ID (consistently) would decrease credit card fraud drastically.

Maybe where you are. But in the L.A. area $50 on just about any street corner will get you a fake California driver license that even the CHP can't be sure is real without scanning it. There's a reason why CA has revamped their licenses three times in the last three years.

 

And there's at least one credit card thief out there who went that route and made off with slightly more than $20k after cloning my wife's card.

 

I have to show my Driver's License to buy beer - so the argument that it's 'insecure' to show your ID to a merchant is ridiculous at best.

What's ridiculous is comparing a state law that mandates merchants check ID for alcohol purchases to a case where there is -- surprise, surprise -- no state mandate.

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It is true that showing ID violates cardholder agreements and does not fraud-proof a transaction.

 

It is also annoying (at least to me).

 

But if the request comes from the CC issuer (which it often does), not complying will probably get your card restricted "for your protection", which is even more annoying.

 

If you need the MS (the sort of transaction most likely to trigger an ID request), best policy is probably to comply.

 

Otherwise try a different card, a different merchant, or pay with a $100 bill. Or maybe a shoebox full of old, crumpled $1s. Dollar coins were ideal for this, before the supply dried up.

I'm always surprised when merchants claim that showing ID means they cant later get hit for unauthorized use of the card. Even without taking into account fake ID, the card association chargeback policies are such that all a cardholder has to do is state they didn't make or authorize the transaction and the merchant will get FITA no matter how many IDs the customer showed them.

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Any store can refuse a transaction for any reason - it's private property, and they are not forced to enter into a contract (i.e. purchase) if they have any reservations. Whereas it's not card policy to show an ID, an individual store is well-within their rights to implement their own set of policies to protect themselves. They can refuse the transaction, or require an alternate payment method at any time. Additionally, a customer can refuse to show their ID - that's also well within their rights. However, the store is not under obligation to complete any transaction, ever.

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I like to follow rules and paraphrasing the rules for acceptance of Visa/MasterCard, so long as I have a valid card which is signed, and my signature on the sales receipt matches the signature on the back of the card, then the merchant is protected. These aren't my rules, these are the rules of Visa/MasterCard that the merchant agreed to when they decided to take credit cards as payments. I'm expected to follow the rules, so I expect the merchant to follow the rules too. If they choose not to, then I will become difficult.

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Any store can refuse a transaction for any reason - it's private property, and they are not forced to enter into a contract (i.e. purchase) if they have any reservations. Whereas it's not card policy to show an ID, an individual store is well-within their rights to implement their own set of policies to protect themselves. They can refuse the transaction, or require an alternate payment method at any time. Additionally, a customer can refuse to show their ID - that's also well within their rights. However, the store is not under obligation to complete any transaction, ever.

 

That is simply wrong.

 

There are a growing number of businesses in Oregon who have lost their business license for refusal to provide goods or services to certain segments of customers. While they cannot be physically forced to consummate a transaction, the state is also under no obligation to do anything but laugh when they are in the throes of bankruptcy unable to get a business license.

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Does anyone ask anymore? That's the real issue.

It depends on where you are. Seems to happen more in California for me, but then even that goes in spurts.

 

California passed a law stating that the state cannot pass a law prohibiting merchants from asking for ID. So many got it into their brain that they should ask for ID. Obviously some folks complained to the card associations and I know of several merchants who were smacked upside the head when the card association reminded their merchant account provider of their contractual terms.

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Here's a link to a document relevant to the discussion. It's the card acceptance guidelines for Visa merchants.

 

https://usa.visa.com/download/merchants/card-acceptance-guidelines-for-visa-merchants.pdf

 

Some snippets, taken out of context:

 

"Keep cardholder account numbers and personal information confidential. Cardholders expect you to safeguard any personal or financial information they may give you in the course of a transaction. Keeping that trust is essential to fraud reduction and good customer service. Cardholder account numbers and other personal information should be released only to your acquirer or processor, or as specifically required by law." (pg. 14)

 

Unsigned Cards and "See ID":

 

Page_1_33.jpg

 

 

On page 34 you get the blurb about, "merchants cannot make an ID a condition of acceptance". Seems pretty unambiguous to me.

Edited by policebox

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Not sure why there's much debate on this topic. Someone who has stolen your credit card almost certainly won't take the time to also create a valid-looking government-issued ID with your name on it. Showing an ID (consistently) would decrease credit card fraud drastically.

Maybe where you are. But in the L.A. area $50 on just about any street corner will get you a fake California driver license that even the CHP can't be sure is real without scanning it. There's a reason why CA has revamped their licenses three times in the last three years.

 

And there's at least one credit card thief out there who went that route and made off with slightly more than $20k after cloning my wife's card.

 

I have to show my Driver's License to buy beer - so the argument that it's 'insecure' to show your ID to a merchant is ridiculous at best.

What's ridiculous is comparing a state law that mandates merchants check ID for alcohol purchases to a case where there is -- surprise, surprise -- no state mandate.

There was a DMV office here in Ohio, that got shut down maybe about 10-15 years ago, because the employees were producing and selling fake driver's licenses and state IDs.

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Not sure why there's much debate on this topic. Someone who has stolen your credit card almost certainly won't take the time to also create a valid-looking government-issued ID with your name on it. Showing an ID (consistently) would decrease credit card fraud drastically.

Maybe where you are. But in the L.A. area $50 on just about any street corner will get you a fake California driver license that even the CHP can't be sure is real without scanning it. There's a reason why CA has revamped their licenses three times in the last three years.

 

And there's at least one credit card thief out there who went that route and made off with slightly more than $20k after cloning my wife's card.

 

I have to show my Driver's License to buy beer - so the argument that it's 'insecure' to show your ID to a merchant is ridiculous at best.

What's ridiculous is comparing a state law that mandates merchants check ID for alcohol purchases to a case where there is -- surprise, surprise -- no state mandate.

There was a DMV office here in Ohio, that got shut down maybe about 10-15 years ago, because the employees were producing and selling fake driver's licenses and state IDs.

 

 

Here in New Mexico, it's harder to get an ID when you have proof of identity than it is to get an ID without it. We are one of the few states who allow IDs to be issued to undocumented immigrants.

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Not sure why there's much debate on this topic. Someone who has stolen your credit card almost certainly won't take the time to also create a valid-looking government-issued ID with your name on it. Showing an ID (consistently) would decrease credit card fraud drastically.

Maybe where you are. But in the L.A. area $50 on just about any street corner will get you a fake California driver license that even the CHP can't be sure is real without scanning it. There's a reason why CA has revamped their licenses three times in the last three years.

 

And there's at least one credit card thief out there who went that route and made off with slightly more than $20k after cloning my wife's card.

 

I have to show my Driver's License to buy beer - so the argument that it's 'insecure' to show your ID to a merchant is ridiculous at best.

What's ridiculous is comparing a state law that mandates merchants check ID for alcohol purchases to a case where there is -- surprise, surprise -- no state mandate.
There was a DMV office here in Ohio, that got shut down maybe about 10-15 years ago, because the employees were producing and selling fake driver's licenses and state IDs.

Here in New Mexico, it's harder to get an ID when you have proof of identity than it is to get an ID without it. We are one of the few states who allow IDs to be issued to undocumented immigrants.

Wow, that's crazy!

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Not sure why there's much debate on this topic. Someone who has stolen your credit card almost certainly won't take the time to also create a valid-looking government-issued ID with your name on it. Showing an ID (consistently) would decrease credit card fraud drastically.

Maybe where you are. But in the L.A. area $50 on just about any street corner will get you a fake California driver license that even the CHP can't be sure is real without scanning it. There's a reason why CA has revamped their licenses three times in the last three years.

And there's at least one credit card thief out there who went that route and made off with slightly more than $20k after cloning my wife's card.

I have to show my Driver's License to buy beer - so the argument that it's 'insecure' to show your ID to a merchant is ridiculous at best.

What's ridiculous is comparing a state law that mandates merchants check ID for alcohol purchases to a case where there is -- surprise, surprise -- no state mandate.
There was a DMV office here in Ohio, that got shut down maybe about 10-15 years ago, because the employees were producing and selling fake driver's licenses and state IDs.

Here in New Mexico, it's harder to get an ID when you have proof of identity than it is to get an ID without it. We are one of the few states who allow IDs to be issued to undocumented immigrants.

Wow, that's crazy!

Definitely!

 

I remember there was a news story about that, too. Can't remember the exact details, but it was a really bizarre situation.

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Any store can refuse a transaction for any reason - it's private property, and they are not forced to enter into a contract (i.e. purchase) if they have any reservations. Whereas it's not card policy to show an ID, an individual store is well-within their rights to implement their own set of policies to protect themselves. They can refuse the transaction, or require an alternate payment method at any time. Additionally, a customer can refuse to show their ID - that's also well within their rights. However, the store is not under obligation to complete any transaction, ever.

That is simply wrong.

 

There are a growing number of businesses in Oregon who have lost their business license for refusal to provide goods or services to certain segments of customers. While they cannot be physically forced to consummate a transaction, the state is also under no obligation to do anything but laugh when they are in the throes of bankruptcy unable to get a business license.

 

Sure, it's illegal if you're discriminating based on race, gender, etc. However, it's well-within a business' rights to refuse a transaction. Merchants regularly do this for tons of reasons - i.e. you've made too many returns in the past, etc. It's called fraud - and they have EVERY RIGHT to prevent it within their business - assuming they have a legitimate reason for suspicion.

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Any store can refuse a transaction for any reason - it's private property, and they are not forced to enter into a contract (i.e. purchase) if they have any reservations. Whereas it's not card policy to show an ID, an individual store is well-within their rights to implement their own set of policies to protect themselves. They can refuse the transaction, or require an alternate payment method at any time. Additionally, a customer can refuse to show their ID - that's also well within their rights. However, the store is not under obligation to complete any transaction, ever.

 

That is simply wrong.

There are a growing number of businesses in Oregon who have lost their business license for refusal to provide goods or services to certain segments of customers. While they cannot be physically forced to consummate a transaction, the state is also under no obligation to do anything but laugh when they are in the throes of bankruptcy unable to get a business license.

Sure, it's illegal if you're discriminating based on race, gender, etc. However, it's well-within a business' rights to refuse a transaction. Merchants regularly do this for tons of reasons - i.e. you've made too many returns in the past, etc. It's called fraud - and they have EVERY RIGHT to prevent it within their business - assuming they have a legitimate reason for suspicion.

Name merchants that refuse new purchases based on numerous product returns.

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Any store can refuse a transaction for any reason - it's private property, and they are not forced to enter into a contract (i.e. purchase) if they have any reservations. Whereas it's not card policy to show an ID, an individual store is well-within their rights to implement their own set of policies to protect themselves. They can refuse the transaction, or require an alternate payment method at any time. Additionally, a customer can refuse to show their ID - that's also well within their rights. However, the store is not under obligation to complete any transaction, ever.

That is simply wrong.

There are a growing number of businesses in Oregon who have lost their business license for refusal to provide goods or services to certain segments of customers. While they cannot be physically forced to consummate a transaction, the state is also under no obligation to do anything but laugh when they are in the throes of bankruptcy unable to get a business license.

Sure, it's illegal if you're discriminating based on race, gender, etc. However, it's well-within a business' rights to refuse a transaction. Merchants regularly do this for tons of reasons - i.e. you've made too many returns in the past, etc. It's called fraud - and they have EVERY RIGHT to prevent it within their business - assuming they have a legitimate reason for suspicion.

Name merchants that refuse new purchases based on numerous product returns.

 

How about Amazon, for starters:

http://money.msn.com/saving-money-tips/post--think-twice-before-returning-items-to-these-5-stores?ref=bfv

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If you want to see exactly what The Retail Equation has on file for you, consumers are welcome to request a copy of their Return Activity Report. You can send your request via email or snail mail:

 

The Retail Equation
P.O. Box 51373
Irvine, CA 92619-1373
ReturnActivityReport​@TheRetailEquation.c​om

 

Oh boy, yet another report I have to request to see what is "out there" about me.

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http://creditboards.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=395742&p=3737401

 

 

 

Simply call 1-800-VISA-911, press zero twice, and ask to file an "incident report" regarding a merchant violation/merchant who required ID. Crooked merchants shape-up quickly to avoid suspension. Make sure your community is 100% violation-free. smile.gif

 

Also:

 

 

CREDIT CARD SIGNATURE IS ALL THE ID NEEDED

When you pay for merchandise with a Visa card, MasterCard, or American Express any store that accepts these cards should accept yours too, no questions asked. It's part of the deal that merchants agree to when they become participating members.

They must check your signature and the card - electronically or by telephone - to be sure it's valid. Once the answer comes up yes, they can go ahead and charge. They can't ask you for any further identification - not a license plate number, Social Security number, proof of address, phone number or photo ID.

Your personal ID isn't needed because Visa, MasterCard, and American Express all guarantee payment on cards that have been properly checked. If the issuer mistakenly authorizes a sale on a bad card, it should make good. MasterCard says that merchants receive instant settlement. The contract MasterCard merchants sign specifically prevents them from asking for personal ID.

Unfortunately, not all merchants play by the rules. Some, apparently, haven't read them.

WHAT YOU CAN DO

MasterCard wants to hear about merchants who break their rules. Send the name and address and an account of what happened to MasterCard WorldWide 2000 Purchase St. Purchase, NY 10577 or call 1-800-300-3069. The merchant's bank will get a stiff letter, ordering it to investigate and bring the offending store into line - or pay a $2,000 fine. You may also report violations online:

http://www.mastercar...violations.html

Visa enforces the same rules as MasterCard. "When we hear about a violation, we ask the bank that signed the merchant to get together with the merchant and see that the practice is stopped," Visa representative states. To report a merchant, send a letter to the bank that that issued your Visa card or call 1-800-VISA-911.

American Express also prohibits merchants from asking for IDs. "All a merchant is supposed to do is take an imprint, make sure the signature matches and swipe the card through the terminal, to get authorization."

 

 

According to the terms of their contract with their processor, merchants are generally not permitted to ask for an ID. To quote from "Visa Rules For Merchants," -- "merchants cannot make an ID a condition of acceptance ... Visa believes merchants should not ask for ID as part of their regular card acceptance procedures."

The only exception to this is if the card is not signed - including cards that say "See ID" in lieu of a signature. In that case, the merchant must request an ID and insist the card be signed before accepting it. A card without a signature is not valid. No exceptions.

Tom Mahoney, Director
Merchant911.org
Uniting merchants against fraud since 2001

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I won't even show my driver's license to the TSA.   I  use my TWIC card for that.   Since people started getting hinky about SSN's the DL# is the primarily authentication for online banking and I'm not showing it anybody but a cop.

 

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