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Credit and debit card transaction fees at my local store

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I am for the rights of the small business to try to recoup the costs of the small credit card purchases. I think the people that expect to be able to charge small purchases and have the small merchant take a loss is kind of selfish.

 

 

 

if the small business is profitable these are tax deductive costs of doing business.

 

if the small business is not profitable the market should wipe them out.

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Would ya'll actually dispute 3.00 charges 15-20 times a month?

 

The owner is American, born and raised in our home town. This does seem like something you know how would do.

 

I agree 3.00 is too high

 

The owner explained it as, the CC company that processes the transactions and sends them to his bank for the deposti is charging him a higer fees per transaction, I told him to find another company to deal with.

 

I think this is what is normally known as the cost of owning and operating a business. If he doesn't like it maybe he should try doing something else.

 

He shouldn't just accept a 3.00 per transaction fee. The cost of owning a business does not include $3.00 transaction fees. I think the processor is screwing him and he needs to find a new processor or decide not to accept cards. If they decided to make candy bars $8.00 a piece he would find a different distributor or he would not be selling them. Same issue. I still think this guy still must have other issues, either with intelligence or honesty.

 

As to your main point about ANY transaction fee I think we have to put ourselves in the shoes of the small business. This issue although exagerated, highlights the problem these small merchants face. They MUST accept the cards because people demand it now, and these tranactions fees plus 3% are to much when the transaction is so small. So saying it is a cost of doing business it true, but it is a cost like any other which must be managed. If the cost can be attributed to a certain transaction, that is a legitimate way to handle it. Otherwise you are transfering the cost to other people. Why force the merchant to take a loss on many tranactions a day, just for the abilty to maybe make it up somewhere else. The monopoly the Visa have is to strong and must be dealt with. For me when I go into a store I want to be a good customer and not throw some unfair contract he has with Visa to force him into a loss. I respect other people more than that.

 

I use this example to put things is perspective:

 

If I want extra cheese on a pizza I pay $3 for it. Luckily the cheese supplier is nicer than Visa and allows the merchant to charge for it and not give it away, but I guess there are more cheese suppliers than credit card companies.

 

If extra cheese was free pizza for all would go up, say initially $1.50 but then everyone would order it with extra cheese and the cost would then go up to $3 for everyone! I would have lost my choice of saving money by getting less cheese. Evil cheese supplier wins. I lose. At least it would be the merchants choice on how to price his products, apparently once you get to payment all that choice should be taking away from him? I know he has the right to not accept the cards, but this is a false choice given the market conditions. You are really cramming down an extra cost on the merchants by holding a gun to his head. Not very American.

Edited by frank22

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I am for the rights of the small business to try to recoup the costs of the small credit card purchases. I think the people that expect to be able to charge small purchases and have the small merchant take a loss is kind of selfish.

 

 

 

if the small business is profitable these are tax deductive costs of doing business.

 

if the small business is not profitable the market should wipe them out.

 

The fact it is tax deductible is meaningless, because every cost is tax deductible and should not come into play in decision making no more than any other cost. Why not just pay someone $50 an hour with that thought process, he will deduct it from his taxes, right?

 

He should have right to manage costs and to try to make each transaction profitable. The CC's use their monopoly to try to force them into a bad situation. Whatever way you think it saves him money COULD be true(I could argue the point I think) but it doesn't matter, he should be able to make his pricing decisions and I then can take that into account when I decide to pay cash or credit or if I want to do business with him. I do not need the CC's to help me out or to force the guy into a unprofitable situation.

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The owner explained it as, the CC company that processes the transactions and sends them to his bank for the deposti is charging him a higer fees per transaction, I told him to find another company to deal with.

 

Or stop accepting CCs. It's part of business. If you wanna take CCs, you gotta pay the fees. I used to have a merchant account for my business and I got tired of paying their fees, so I just stopped accepting cards. I hardly got a request for them, so it didn't hurt me any, but if my customers wanted to use their cards, I would have two options. Ditch the customers or pay the fees.

 

It could be $0.50 and it's still not acceptable. The merchant agreement says you can't do it.... so don't do it. Pretty black and white.

 

 

-R

 

You are saying you would rather not have the choice? I think it is also acceptable for me to have a choice, along with the real cost and then make a decision. Are you guys so militant on this issue that you don't want even the choice to be acceptable.

 

The rule is the rule is not the best argument because I really thing the rule is wrong. They merchants are really between a rock and a hard place on this and I think we should be more sympathetic to their situation.

 

You know the fee before hand, you can choose not to pay it. Why not just let it go at that?

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I am for the rights of the small business to try to recoup the costs of the small credit card purchases. I think the people that expect to be able to charge small purchases and have the small merchant take a loss is kind of selfish.

 

 

 

if the small business is profitable these are tax deductive costs of doing business.

 

if the small business is not profitable the market should wipe them out.

 

The fact it is tax deductible is meaningless, because every cost is tax deductible and should not come into play in decision making no more than any other cost. Why not just pay someone $50 an hour with that thought process, he will deduct it from his taxes, right?

 

He should have right to manage costs and to try to make each transaction profitable. The CC's use their monopoly to try to force them into a bad situation. Whatever way you think it saves him money COULD be true(I could argue the point I think) but it doesn't matter, he should be able to make his pricing decisions and I then can take that into account when I decide to pay cash or credit or if I want to do business with him. I do not need the CC's to help me out or to force the guy into a unprofitable situation.

 

 

so how is violating his contract with the networks a solution? if he is profitable why does needs to charge such a fee? greed?

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I am for the rights of the small business to try to recoup the costs of the small credit card purchases. I think the people that expect to be able to charge small purchases and have the small merchant take a loss is kind of selfish.

 

 

 

if the small business is profitable these are tax deductive costs of doing business.

 

if the small business is not profitable the market should wipe them out.

 

The fact it is tax deductible is meaningless, because every cost is tax deductible and should not come into play in decision making no more than any other cost. Why not just pay someone $50 an hour with that thought process, he will deduct it from his taxes, right?

 

He should have right to manage costs and to try to make each transaction profitable. The CC's use their monopoly to try to force them into a bad situation. Whatever way you think it saves him money COULD be true(I could argue the point I think) but it doesn't matter, he should be able to make his pricing decisions and I then can take that into account when I decide to pay cash or credit or if I want to do business with him. I do not need the CC's to help me out or to force the guy into a unprofitable situation.

 

 

so how is violating his contract with the networks a solution? if he is profitable why does needs to charge such a fee? greed?

 

 

If I own a business the fact that I make money on some customers does not mean I should be forced to take a loss on others. I don't think it is greed to think like that. If a merchant DID think like that it should be his choice, and not a contract I have with a vendor to force the issue. If a merchant wanted to do that because he felt for some reason it was a smart business decision, well that would be OK by me. I just think it should be his choice if he wants to match costs with each transaction and that is at least a REASONABLE way to handle it. As long as we are aware of the costs.

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So then wouldn't it be on the small business owners to band together and force a change to their terms?

 

As consumers, we can't do anything to help but pay the fees if we so desire. My costs have gone up, some of which I have passed along as higher prices, but a lot I've just had to swallow. If my business model is such that those increase cause me to go out of business, then my model is flawed.

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Walmart did the same thing ago (sorta) a few years ago around Christmas time, they were asking for ID with every credit card purchase, regardless if the card was signed, I refused and got the police and security involved, I swiped my card got an approval, and bagged myself, when they asked for ID, I asked why b/c they had an automated approval and sigs matched, they said "local policy", i said I am not showing ID and I am leaving with my merchandise, LP and security tried to stop me and put their hands on me while I was leaving, I called 911, pressed charges for assault against store LP, and luckily I had the letter from VISA/ MC (I reported them a week prior and had it with me knowing this would happen) and the VISA and MC letter said it is prohibited to ask for ID unless it was a "code 10/suspicious transaction" or the auth response requested sig. I showed that to the police and they let me go, arrested the LP staff, and I sued Walmart for harassment, assault, and misc. damages, they gave me $50k and politely asked me not to shop there anymore, I dropped the charges against the individuals,only after they agreed to additional civil restitution of $2500 a piece, and Walmart removed the signs and the manager got fired.

 

So yes, call 1-800-visa-911 and report them, they will send you a letter and I forget the MC phone # but they will send you a letter to as your ammo...merchants CANNOT do this, and you will win ANY dispute you may have.\

 

Yes, I knew they had this policy and deliberatly set them up knowing the police and LP would be involved, but hey, I made 55k for their violations of their contract.

<_<

 

For real???

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IT IS NEVER THE...

 

WATER

SEWER

TRASH

PHONE

GAS

ELECTRIC

 

...THAT IS GOING TO BREAK THEM

 

...IT IS ALWAYS THAT TAX DEDUCTABLE CREDIT CARD FEE

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So then wouldn't it be on the small business owners to band together and force a change to their terms?

 

As consumers, we can't do anything to help but pay the fees if we so desire. My costs have gone up, some of which I have passed along as higher prices, but a lot I've just had to swallow. If my business model is such that those increase cause me to go out of business, then my model is flawed.

 

I have been told they can't band together like that because of collusion laws. The same reason that airlines cant' get together and collude on prices.

 

I think the only way to change the terms is for the merchants to start enforcing minimums or imposing a transaction fee for small purchases. It would only be around .$60. I think what would happen fairly quickly is that the CC's would lower the fee. I think large corporation pay the percentage, but not the per swipe fee. This is the fee that the smaller guy gets charged that is hurting him.

 

CC's WANT us to use the cards for everything. They would lower the fees as consumers decided to use cash to avoid the fee. This is normal pricing behavior, but the monopoly is used to obstruct it.

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So then wouldn't it be on the small business owners to band together and force a change to their terms?

 

As consumers, we can't do anything to help but pay the fees if we so desire. My costs have gone up, some of which I have passed along as higher prices, but a lot I've just had to swallow. If my business model is such that those increase cause me to go out of business, then my model is flawed.

 

I have been told they can't band together like that because of collusion laws. The same reason that airlines cant' get together and collude on prices.

 

I think the only way to change the terms is for the merchants to start enforcing minimums or imposing a transaction fee for small purchases. It would only be around .$60. I think what would happen fairly quickly is that the CC's would lower the fee. I think large corporation pay the percentage, but not the per swipe fee. This is the fee that the smaller guy gets charged that is hurting him.

 

CC's WANT us to use the cards for everything. They would lower the fees as consumers decided to use cash to avoid the fee. This is normal pricing behavior, but the monopoly is used to obstruct it.

 

it is not a monopoly. an oligopoly maybe.

 

why don't small biz owners band together to get water bills lowered? now THAT is a monopoly...

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I have been told they can't band together like that because of collusion laws. The same reason that airlines cant' get together and collude on prices.

 

I think the only way to change the terms is for the merchants to start enforcing minimums or imposing a transaction fee for small purchases. It would only be around .$60. I think what would happen fairly quickly is that the CC's would lower the fee. I think large corporation pay the percentage, but not the per swipe fee. This is the fee that the smaller guy gets charged that is hurting him.

 

CC's WANT us to use the cards for everything. They would lower the fees as consumers decided to use cash to avoid the fee. This is normal pricing behavior, but the monopoly is used to obstruct it.

 

I was thinking more along the lines of business owners dropping their merchant accounts.

 

The problem is that if they start adding fees that are against their contracts, those contracts could be canceled. Then what??

 

I agree that the fees can be high. But I know you can shop around and find companies with lower fees. It's never going to be free.. everyone along the line has to make money. Fine... just pick companies that want to make more reasonable amounts then those that don't???

 

I dunno... With the way the economy is there is only so much consumers are going to be willing to bear. Business would love to just pass along any increase to the consumer thus keeping their profits the same... but it's just not reasonable. (Unless you are a gas station in which case you can all charge $5 a gallon and people have no choice but to pay it unless they wanna walk or bike to work/school/shop)

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IT IS NEVER THE...

 

WATER

SEWER

TRASH

PHONE

GAS

ELECTRIC

 

...THAT IS GOING TO BREAK THEM

 

...IT IS ALWAYS THAT TAX DEDUCTABLE CREDIT CARD FEE

 

 

I know you will never change your mind George. I have already addressed the tax deductable issue. But water, sewer and all that IS general overhead and is a FIXED cost. It cannot be attributable to one transaction. A variable costs such as cheese on a pizza and a delivery charge CAN be attributable to each transactions. It is better to charge these costs to their respective transactions. That way EACH tranactions is a profitable one. A small shop should not have many transactions at a loss(or lack of profits) and many others at some gain, and hope that they end up being a net plus. It is ONE way to run a business, but it is not the best way. We should not impose this on the merchant.

 

A small merchant could be broken by the high use of small transaction credit.

Edited by frank22

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IT IS NEVER THE...

 

WATER

SEWER

TRASH

PHONE

GAS

ELECTRIC

 

...THAT IS GOING TO BREAK THEM

 

...IT IS ALWAYS THAT TAX DEDUCTABLE CREDIT CARD FEE

 

 

I know you will never change your mind George. I have already addressed the tax deductable issue. But water, sewer and all that IS general overhead and is a FIXED cost. It cannot be attributable to one transaction. A variable costs such as cheese on a pizza and a delivery charge CAN be attributable to each transactions. It is better to charge these costs to their respective transactions. That way EACH tranactions is a profitable one. A small shop should not have many transactions at a loss(or lack of profits) and many others at some gain, and hope that they end up being a net plus. It is ONE way to run a business, but it is not the best way. We should not impose this on the merchant.

 

A small merchant could be broken by a high use of cards.

 

then that merchant shouldnt take them

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Don't like paying merchant fees? Don't accept credit cards. See how many customers/sales you lose.

 

I don't like pay the electricity for my business, so I am going to protest and not pay them. Wait, I don't have any more customers... (my electric company is the ONLY one to choose from)

 

If a business's profit can be eliminated by the cost of merchant fees, than the business should NOT be in business.

Edited by greywolf

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Walmart did the same thing ago (sorta) a few years ago around Christmas time, they were asking for ID with every credit card purchase, regardless if the card was signed, I refused and got the police and security involved, I swiped my card got an approval, and bagged myself, when they asked for ID, I asked why b/c they had an automated approval and sigs matched, they said "local policy", i said I am not showing ID and I am leaving with my merchandise, LP and security tried to stop me and put their hands on me while I was leaving, I called 911, pressed charges for assault against store LP, and luckily I had the letter from VISA/ MC (I reported them a week prior and had it with me knowing this would happen) and the VISA and MC letter said it is prohibited to ask for ID unless it was a "code 10/suspicious transaction" or the auth response requested sig. I showed that to the police and they let me go, arrested the LP staff, and I sued Walmart for harassment, assault, and misc. damages, they gave me $50k and politely asked me not to shop there anymore, I dropped the charges against the individuals,only after they agreed to additional civil restitution of $2500 a piece, and Walmart removed the signs and the manager got fired.

 

So yes, call 1-800-visa-911 and report them, they will send you a letter and I forget the MC phone # but they will send you a letter to as your ammo...merchants CANNOT do this, and you will win ANY dispute you may have.\

 

Yes, I knew they had this policy and deliberatly set them up knowing the police and LP would be involved, but hey, I made 55k for their violations of their contract.

I call BS.

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IT IS NEVER THE...

 

WATER

SEWER

TRASH

PHONE

GAS

ELECTRIC

 

...THAT IS GOING TO BREAK THEM

 

...IT IS ALWAYS THAT TAX DEDUCTABLE CREDIT CARD FEE

 

 

I know you will never change your mind George. I have already addressed the tax deductable issue. But water, sewer and all that IS general overhead and is a FIXED cost. It cannot be attributable to one transaction. A variable costs such as cheese on a pizza and a delivery charge CAN be attributable to each transactions. It is better to charge these costs to their respective transactions. That way EACH tranactions is a profitable one. A small shop should not have many transactions at a loss(or lack of profits) and many others at some gain, and hope that they end up being a net plus. It is ONE way to run a business, but it is not the best way. We should not impose this on the merchant.

 

A small merchant could be broken by the high use of small transaction credit.

I spend $3 today

 

I was not the same one who spent $52 last week???

 

Are you sure I won't spend $112 next week???

 

That credit card fee is TAX DEDUCTABLE

(don't MICRO-MANAGE the fee at the expense of paying business)

Edited by GEORGE

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Walmart did the same thing ago (sorta) a few years ago around Christmas time, they were asking for ID with every credit card purchase, regardless if the card was signed, I refused and got the police and security involved, I swiped my card got an approval, and bagged myself, when they asked for ID, I asked why b/c they had an automated approval and sigs matched, they said "local policy", i said I am not showing ID and I am leaving with my merchandise, LP and security tried to stop me and put their hands on me while I was leaving, I called 911, pressed charges for assault against store LP, and luckily I had the letter from VISA/ MC (I reported them a week prior and had it with me knowing this would happen) and the VISA and MC letter said it is prohibited to ask for ID unless it was a "code 10/suspicious transaction" or the auth response requested sig. I showed that to the police and they let me go, arrested the LP staff, and I sued Walmart for harassment, assault, and misc. damages, they gave me $50k and politely asked me not to shop there anymore, I dropped the charges against the individuals,only after they agreed to additional civil restitution of $2500 a piece, and Walmart removed the signs and the manager got fired.

 

So yes, call 1-800-visa-911 and report them, they will send you a letter and I forget the MC phone # but they will send you a letter to as your ammo...merchants CANNOT do this, and you will win ANY dispute you may have.\

 

Yes, I knew they had this policy and deliberatly set them up knowing the police and LP would be involved, but hey, I made 55k for their violations of their contract.

After this post, you should probably change your

CreditBoards ID. Hint, if your story is big news,

don't post specific and identifiable information on

any public board. Very few people exist who have

a history like yours.

 

ER

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If a business owner wants to work to change the rules so they can recoup their costs, that's fine. Nothing wrong with people banding together and lobbying for common interests. In the mean time, however, they should either honor the established rules and their contracts or just not accept CCs.

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Walmart did the same thing ago (sorta) a few years ago around Christmas time, they were asking for ID with every credit card purchase, regardless if the card was signed, I refused and got the police and security involved, I swiped my card got an approval, and bagged myself, when they asked for ID, I asked why b/c they had an automated approval and sigs matched, they said "local policy", i said I am not showing ID and I am leaving with my merchandise, LP and security tried to stop me and put their hands on me while I was leaving, I called 911, pressed charges for assault against store LP, and luckily I had the letter from VISA/ MC (I reported them a week prior and had it with me knowing this would happen) and the VISA and MC letter said it is prohibited to ask for ID unless it was a "code 10/suspicious transaction" or the auth response requested sig. I showed that to the police and they let me go, arrested the LP staff, and I sued Walmart for harassment, assault, and misc. damages, they gave me $50k and politely asked me not to shop there anymore, I dropped the charges against the individuals,only after they agreed to additional civil restitution of $2500 a piece, and Walmart removed the signs and the manager got fired.

 

So yes, call 1-800-visa-911 and report them, they will send you a letter and I forget the MC phone # but they will send you a letter to as your ammo...merchants CANNOT do this, and you will win ANY dispute you may have.\

 

Yes, I knew they had this policy and deliberatly set them up knowing the police and LP would be involved, but hey, I made 55k for their violations of their contract.

After this post, you should probably change your

CreditBoards ID. Hint, if your story is big news,

don't post specific and identifiable information on

any public board. Very few people exist who have

a history like yours.

 

ER

 

 

unless they have a NDA on their settlement this shouldnt matter.

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"IF" that tax deductable FEE is the straw that broke the camels back...DON'T TAKE CREDIT CARDS

 

But don't expect to retain most of the business

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That credit card fee is TAX DEDUCTABLE

(don't MICRO-MANAGE the fee at the expense of paying business)

 

 

Again, answer this: What does tax deductible have to do with it at all? Every expense is tax deductible!!! Does that mean the merchant shouldn't try to manage ANY of his expenses? Pay you a clerk $50 an hour because it is tax deductible? Taxation is not part of the discussion. You can't keep using this as an issue and be creditable.

 

Edited to add: See you just keep repeating the same lines without any discussion about issues brought up. After you answer that question, how about the cost of doing business part?

 

Yes it is a cost of doing business, but all costs are. They need to be managed. This is a normal variable costs and all he is trying to do is match it with a transaction. He wants EACH transaction to be profitable. Extra cheese on the pizza- no different. Please explain why I have to pay extra for the extra cheese, but not for the transaction which also cost the merchant more? Again this is normal business cost analysis and it is at least reasonable to do it this way. I don't think you should force a loss on him today in hopes of maybe making a profit on you later. It is his decision based on his experienc. He shouldn't be forced to run his business the way you think he should. Please tell me why he should change an obvious variable costs into a fixed cost so you don't have to pay your own way?

Edited by frank22

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Walmart did the same thing ago (sorta) a few years ago around Christmas time, they were asking for ID with every credit card purchase, regardless if the card was signed, I refused and got the police and security involved, I swiped my card got an approval, and bagged myself, when they asked for ID, I asked why b/c they had an automated approval and sigs matched, they said "local policy", i said I am not showing ID and I am leaving with my merchandise, LP and security tried to stop me and put their hands on me while I was leaving, I called 911, pressed charges for assault against store LP, and luckily I had the letter from VISA/ MC (I reported them a week prior and had it with me knowing this would happen) and the VISA and MC letter said it is prohibited to ask for ID unless it was a "code 10/suspicious transaction" or the auth response requested sig. I showed that to the police and they let me go, arrested the LP staff, and I sued Walmart for harassment, assault, and misc. damages, they gave me $50k and politely asked me not to shop there anymore, I dropped the charges against the individuals,only after they agreed to additional civil restitution of $2500 a piece, and Walmart removed the signs and the manager got fired.

 

So yes, call 1-800-visa-911 and report them, they will send you a letter and I forget the MC phone # but they will send you a letter to as your ammo...merchants CANNOT do this, and you will win ANY dispute you may have.\

 

Yes, I knew they had this policy and deliberatly set them up knowing the police and LP would be involved, but hey, I made 55k for their violations of their contract.

After this post, you should probably change your

CreditBoards ID. Hint, if your story is big news,

don't post specific and identifiable information on

any public board. Very few people exist who have

a history like yours.

 

ER

If it was REAL there would be a NON DISCLOSURE I am 100% positive

 

I go more with ANTI WALMART SHEEP can you say BAHHH

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I would rather be a Weirdo in walmart dressed in slippers and PJ's than to pay that fee.

 

I agree there! :yes2:

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That credit card fee is TAX DEDUCTABLE

(don't MICRO-MANAGE the fee at the expense of paying business)

 

 

Again, answer this: What does tax deductible have to do with it at all? Every expense is tax deductible!!! Does that mean the merchant shouldn't try to manage ANY of his expenses? Pay you a clerk $50 an hour because it is tax deductible? Taxation is not part of the discussion. You can't keep using this as an issue and be creditable.

One owner/manager actually did the MICRO-MANAGE CRAP so much he told a customer he would be better off if they shoplifted the candy bar instead of charging it on their credit card

 

:yes2:

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