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I am a ‘why’ person. So I tend to ask some crazy off the wall questions.....

(This got a little long on me- so edits to condense are welcome!)


Why are we putting the burden of work/proof on ourselves with CA’s? As well as the cost?

Regardless of the reality, in a legal court of law, we are innocent until proven guilty; and this idealism should be present in all aspects of consumer transactions and is as a standard of business transactions.


Bear with me, as I follow this thought......

Debt, in our society, has become a commodity and is bartered, traded and sold as such as a legally enforced entity within the Statue of Limitations set by each State.; once it is released for any purposes from the original creditor. It becomes a commodity!

Why are we, as consumers, allowing these transactions to be bartered, traded and sold without legal, legible documented proof to be presented to us as valid from the CA’s?

Why are we not holding them accountable and allowing such transactions to take place between them if they cannot prove the validity of the debt? Endlessly on and on....


Any other tangible commodity in our society is bartered, traded or sold with documentation like receipts and invoices showing clear and true exchange, not just to record the transaction, but for Federal and State tax purposes.

The IRS requires these paper trails in all legal companies.


If you purchase, in block, 100 cars from a junk yard, it doesn’t matter what you do to the cars or how you present them as a commodity, you have to have legal documentation that you not only have the right, as a Federal and State entity to present them (sell, barter or trade) as a commodity, but has to be legally recognized validity of their (cars) condition and the direct link through a valid VIN as to the history of the car (commodity).


Or, an intangible but recordable product like electricity. It has to be metered, and the numbers recording that meterage, have to be make readily available to the consumer for proof of debt to the electric companies.


Companies selling commodities even offer consumer’s things like ‘5 dollars cash if we do not present you with a receipt of your transaction’.


Otherwise, you can be sued and held accountable in Federal and State courts for fraud or criminal activity.


Why are we not demanding the legal validly of a CA with copies of their Federal and State License to practice business in the area of collections with the first letter?

Why are we not demanding an original document of the contractual obligation from creditor and debtor as an assumable standard business practice with each and every transaction of the debt through the CA’s?


Because the original creditor makes an excel spreadsheet list, and then barter, trades or sells it en-mass? Because it is not economically viable for a company to do so?


Those are internal policies and procedures based on economic factors as to the cost of doing business, maintained by a company and not my problem.

The profit/loss balance sheet of an unknown company I have no relationship with is not my problem.

We don’t have to accept them just because it saves them (original creditor) money when they barter, trade or sell this debt to recoup any such said losses.


Bad bookkeeping is not a defensible argument with the IRS /any State entity; so why are we not demanding that same standard?


In the mass of paperwork and the endless shuffling of such en-mass debts through company after company; internal disregard for a legible valid, legally binding documentation, per debt, is not a consumer’s problem.

That is making the assumption of guilt before innocence because of their desire for the GOAL of making money. Not the right. No company has the legal right to make money; they only have the right to set making money as a goal.


There has to be a direct link through a companies recording keeping system back to the original debt and debt amount; and internal policies to purchase software or any such record keeping device which changes, alters or fails to record such a direct link should be placed as a burden of proof on us?

Because they don’t want to have to spend the money within their business to prove the debt first? Because it means their profit/lose margin goes down?


Who cares? I don’t care if these companies want to cut corners on their business practices. If they can’t make money in the practice of debt as a commodity; don’t have the company. Or hire an efficiency expert to go in and revamp the internal policies and procedures; but don’t expect me to pay for it. I am not seeking the relationship.


This all started because a week ago I received a piece of paper in the mail, from an unknown company, with a part of my name on it, saying I owed a debt from another unknown company for just under 300 dollars, with an unknown account number. With three different mailing addresses to contact them, depending on my response. Pay, dispute or return as undeliverable.


I have thought about it after reading many posts on here, and taking the knowledge I have of internal bookkeeping and accounting practices of companies, the cost of doing business within their Administrative dept (if they even have one!) , and started to ask myself why.

Why should I have to be on the defense?

Why should I have to pay for copies of my documents and bear the cost of mailing/contacting this company?

I am not seeking the relationship. They are.

YOU prove it to me- first; or unproven, YOU have nothing and cannot even sell it; because you have proven nothing without legal, legible documentation.

Without proof it is ias ntangible as puffs of air.


The best defense is offense. Why are they not proving to me?? Why are ‘we’ not setting our own standards and demanding them? Why are we waiting to see how far CA’s will go? And then spending all of this time, energy, money and effort to find away around it?


I have also decided, not just the burden of proof of original debt should fall on this company, but the cost of supplying this proof should fall on this company in the form of copies, labor and delivery of said legal proof through any mail system, as well as the burden of proving they are a legal company and have the legal right, with legal documentation to pursue this debt.

Including valid current copies of Federal and State licenses to practice business in the legal description of its’ business practices as presented to the Federal Government and any such State they reside or practice in. And a copy of their W-9 for claiming the receipt of monies as income to the IRS. (Won’t they love that...?)


I had, on many occasions, to provide such proof to consumers with my business; or they would not do business with me.

So why are we not looking at debt and the collection of debt from a logical commodities point of view? Like every other commodities transaction happening inside the United States of America?


Because we don’t demand it BEFORE we ask for validity of the debt in a letter? As a present ed 1/. 2/. 3/.???

Make it a part of EVERY collection validation letter sent; and that it has to be presented attached to the copy of your request.

Let’s use the systems already in place to make them prove they are who they say they are as a standard of debt. And carry that cost in copies, labor and stamps.


Any damn fool can create a list of names, with addresses and make up account numbers with debt amounts and download logos to scan onto a typed piece of paper; but standard Federal and State practices say a company has to be legally created, with proper licenses and place in those documents the intent/practices of that company (in other words they had to tell them they are created for the purpose of debt collection).

And if it is not a true and proper legal entity; why should you or I consider any relationship with them?

Let them bear the cost of proving they have the right to EVEN collect debt as a legal entity in the United States of America.

Federal and State regulations state a company, legally formed for the business it described in its application HAS to provide for consumers these documents. Demand copies first.


AND that if they cannot provide this proof, then they cannot, under charges of fraud and receiving false goods, barter, trade or sell this debt; since they cannot prove it is a legal commodity or that they have the legal rights to such commodity.


Why not stop the debt as being recognized as a legal commodity right then and there?

Stopped; finished, over.

Or they have just opened themselves up to all kinds of legal recourse; not just from the consumer, but to any other CA they sell this debt as a commodity to.


If I fail to prove a car is mine in a business relationship without valid proof, in trying to sell it, can I then turn around and try and sell it for less to another entity?




Will this backfire on me? Come back to haunt me if they do provide this proof and I am held legally responsible for it?

I would rather see that; see the direct link from the original creditor through these CA’s and be responsible for the debt than place any other burden on myself as a consumer.

I would rather know the internal policies of such companies must include valid and reasonable links; whatever the economic cost to them, than have letters like this appear out of nowhere as if I have the burden.


Now that I have gone out there, I am sure there are some loop holes in my thinking and any advice, guidance, would be welcome.

Actually--- tear it apart!!! I’d like to see if anything is left standing to build something on!

Cause I am getting a little tired of carrying their burden.


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A first draft of the letter. I AM NOT A LAWYER- just took legal language from a number of sources....




Thank you for the inquiry.


This is not a refusal to pay, this is a request to validate the legality of the unknown debt(s) and the unknown companie(s) presented to any/all such said consumer(s) as a commodity.

This is not a request to validate the mailing address; this is a request to validate the legality of above said debt(s), and above said companie(s) legal rights to pursue above said debt(s) from any/all such said consumer(s) as defined by the IRS and (list both your and their State here).


Please supply all of the following documentation, in legible form, in numerical order requested attached to this document (or a copy there of) within 30 calendar days of receipt of this document, to the mailing address provided, in order to validate the above said debt(s) to the such said consumer(s) from the companie(s) presented as a commodity.

Only completed requested documentation sent to the mailing address of such said consumer(s) will be considered; uncompleted documentation shall be returned to said companie(s) as un-proven; no other communication shall be acknowledged, and shall be considered but not limited to coercion and blackmail on said companie(s) part to pursue an unknown, un-validated debt(s) and a direct civil and criminal violation.


1/. A copy of above said companie(s) signed FIN or SSN issued by the Internal Revenue Service, that above said companie(s) is a legal entity within the state shown on the request for debt(s) collection, and has described within the legal aspects of said license, is legally able to pursue debt(s) as it’s companie(s) main business practice, and reports the collections of said debt(s) to the IRS as part of companie(s) obligation to report any/all income from the collection of debt(s). As well as any such license /documentation required by above state documented, wherein the legal entity of above said companie(s) is able to legally operate within the legal boundaries of above said State and IRS business guidelines in the United States Of America.


2/. A copy of the current (your State name) State License issued to above said companie(s) wherein above said companie(s) is legally able to pursue any/all debt(s) within the State of (your State name) by said States business guidelines.


3/. A valid, signed copy of the IRS issued W-9 form for reporting monie(s) collected as income to the IRS for Federal tax reporting purouses.



4/. A copy of the contractual obligation between original creditor, and any such said consumer(s), with such said creditor’s legal name and any/all such said consumer(s) legal name and signature in legible form with any/all account numbers pertaining to above such said debt(s).


5/. A copy of the amount of the original debt(s) from the original creditor, and any/all fees, costs, interest, and calculations used to generate/create above stated debt(s) amount currently represented by above said companie(s) to such said consumer(s) as a commodity.


6/. A copy of invoice/receipt proving above said companie(s) legal standing as the purchaser, and legally owning of the above said contractual obligation from the original creditor, showing any/all account numbers and such said consumer(s) name as proof said debt(s) is/was transferred to above said companie(s) free and clear for such said debt(s) collection as a commodity. And/or copies of above stated transactions of above said debt(s) from any/or other legally recognized entity to another, to prove the legality/ownership of collection on any/all said debt(s) presented to such said consumer(s) as a commodity.


7/. An original legal notarized form, on said companie(s) letterhead, from above said companie(s) valid authorized representative of above said companie(s), as proof the above such said debt(s) was not part of an insurance claim, reported as tax-debt relief to the IRS/and or any such State Agencies at any time in the history of the debt(s) commodity, and the above said debt(s) was not reported as income loss on any legally binding IRS report by original creditor, nor any companie(s) that may/may not have purchased above said debt(s) as a commodity. Nor that any of the monie(s) claimed by above said companie(s), who may/may not have had legal ownership, were not collected by any/all consumer(s)s at an earlier date from the issuance of this document, and not applied to above said debt(s), and being misrepresented by above said companie(s) as a fraudulent charge of coercion to collect on above such said debt(s) which may/may not be free and clear.


If all requested documentation requested is not supplied within 30 calendar days of receipt of this document, it will be considered the debt(s) collection by above said companie(s) and any entity identified with such said companie(s), is fraudulent and without legally binding rights, and can be pursued by any/all consumer(s) who was contacted as debtor, as a violation of said act within any such legal organization that can/will award damages for the fraudulent claim of any/all such said debt(s) to such said consumer(s).


Insomuch as the validity of above said debt(s) needs to be free and clear and in good, proper and legal standing as presented by above said companie(s) for collectionas a commodity, no such part of above said debt(s) shall show or be reported to any/all of the three credit reporting agencies in the name of any/all consumer(s) by such any/all companie(s) claiming unknown, un-validated debt(s). Any such reporting/misinformation present on any of the three credit reporting agencies’ after receipt of this document shall be construed as fraudulent force to collect any/all said debt(s) through coercion and blackmail, and open to legal pursuance by any/all such said consumer(s) named with either such name or account numbers presented by said companie(s).


And furthermore that any such said debt(s) will not be sold, transferred, given or traded to any other such entity with the intent to present such said debt(s) as legally valid to any other entity as a legally owned by companie(s) and pursuable as a valid commodity. If such a commodity is presented to any other entity as legally owned when all legible requested documentation was not mailed to any/all consumer(s) at mailing address within 30 calendar days of receipt of this documentation, and such entity that is sold, transferred to, given or traded such said debt(s) contacts or reports such said debt(s) to any/all consumer(s) named or any/all credit reporting agencies; both such entity which received un-validated commodity and named consumer(s) will have the free and clear valid authorization from above said companie(s) on this documentation, to pursue monie(s) awarded by any such legal organization that can/will allocated violations of fraud as described by any such legal organization acting within the United States of America; including but not limited to coercion and blackmail.



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Sounds like a nutcase letter that will likely either go into the trash or have them remove and sell the debt... While the concept may be good in theory, I just dont see any company sending that info to anyone.

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That is the whole point; that they as a company, have to provide consumers with the documentation or or they are legally authorizning they do not legally own the debt; and cannot present it as a commodity.


And that if they do sell it; are liable not just from the consumer, but to any or all entities they present it to as a commodity.


And that we allowe them to.

The question is not the debt; but the legal right to the debt.

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I didn't read all of it as it was quite lengthy, but I think I got the gist of it. Two points...


1) We "allow" it because it's in the agreements we sign. Enough people will roll over that they can afford to tell the difficult ones to go pound sand if they want to modify the agreements. If enough people balked, things would change, but don't hold your breath.


2) "Innocent until proven guilty", in all practicality, is a myth. It sounds good, makes for great debate, and we even try in some limited circumstances, but the real world doesn't work that way.

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Innocent until proven guilty applies to criminal law. In civil law, the burden of proof lies on the defendant.

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Innocent until proven guilty applies to criminal law. In civil law, the burden of proof lies on the defendant.


No the burden of proof lies with with the plaintiff, the one who brings the case.

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Innocent until proven guilty applies to criminal law. In civil law, the burden of proof lies on the defendant.


No the burden of proof lies with with the plaintiff, the one who brings the case.


Exactly, when consumers understand how to make a JDB (in particular) have to prove his right to collect the debt and couple that with a willingness to do so, you frequently see the consumer win his case. JDB's are weak when it comes to fighting an educated consumer. It is the clueless ones who keep the JDB's going.

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