I just added up the repairs I've made over the last 2 yrs...and ouch!

EXCLUDING regular oil changes -

Oct. 2007: $1700 (Slave cylinder leak; replaced clutch while in there; rear differential service)

Nov. 2008: $800 (brakes; serpentine belt; some other stuff I don't remember; was actually really maintenance stuff instead of something "broken")

Feb. 2009: $600 (ignition switch lock cylinder failure)

March 2009: $700 (new Michelin tires and wheel alignment)

August 2009: $1000 (Air Conditioning - new compressor and refrigerant)


My car is 9 yrs old...it is a 2000 Camaro that I bought in June of 2000. Has 95000 miles on it.
kbb "good" private party value is $4100; kbb "excellent" retail is $6k; NADA clean retail is $5400


Now, the stuff I've repaired/replaced should last several years now. The engine and tranny should last several more years (it's the workhorse GM/Buick 3800 v6; manual transmission). My mechanic said everything seems to look good at the moment...no obvious leaks or alarming sounds, etc.


But, when I added all those repairs up, I had a bit of an OMG! moment.

So, when do I give it up and buy another car? (Probably would keep it and add a 2nd car)

In my experience, the price to maintain an older vehicle will almost always be cheaper than buying a newer one. If you don’t believe me, just look at all of the vehicles on the road that are older than yours, then ask yourself this question: “If it is cheaper to drive a new car, then why aren’t all of those owners trading in their older cars too?”

Answer: Because it is not cheaper! When you go to trade in your older car its not going to sit idle, someone else is going to buy it, and chances are it will be on the road for a few more years.

Well, you shouldn't be spending that much on a car that only has 95,000 miles on it, but it IS a GM car so big shocker there.

It's most likely cheaper to maintain an old car unless it's a total lemon. BUT what I've hated about that in the past is the total unpredictability of it. In any given month you may spend nothing on maintenance, or you may have to spend $1500 unplanned. Wreaks havoc on a budget, and after too much of that I almost LIKE having a stable, predictable $330 a month car payment with almost no chance of spending extra on maintenance beyond a $25 oil change.

It's kind of a standard approach not to spend more than a car is worth on maintaining it in a short time frame. But really the alternative is buying another car, so you have to compare the cost and aggravation of maintenance against the cost of buying a new car.

One potential way of dealing with this issue is to regularly set aside (save) money for car maintenance. You know you're gonna have these expenses at some point, so why not plan for them a bit?

I'd suggest doing so in an account that you don't consider your "emergency fund." Instead, it'd be a separate savings/checking account. Could also do the same thing with other iregular (non-monthly) expenses as well -- things like gift purchases, clothing, vacations, insurance premiums, etc.

You have spent $4K in the past 2 years. Maybe it's time to upgrade - cash for clunkers pays you $4500. But make sure you don't exchange your clunker for another clunker (GM or Chrysler).

None of that stuff is really out of line for a 9 year old car. It's annoying stuff, but nothing that will leave you stranded. My general rule of thumb is to start looking for a replacement car when the current one isn't trustworthy anymore.
Trustworthy is a pretty subjective measure, some folks are fine driving around waiting for a slipping tranny to blow, others freak at a broken electric window. I guess when yours gets to the point where you don't trust it on a trip by whatever measure of "trust" you are comfortable with, that'd be a good time to find another.

I guess everyone has their preferences, but I tell 'ya what... I'm now in day 3 of fixing my son's Honda and It ain't much fun. Timing belt stripped a few teeth causing valves to crunch into the pistons. That's on top of the persistent ignition problems, bad main relays, and rotted out radiator- all of which left him stranded somewhere on various occasions. It's newer with less miles than yours.
Our GM's tended to blow out annoying stuff, but never anything that required a tow truck. 200K or more on each of them before replacement.
If the tranny and 3.8 are in good shape, you probably have quite a few miles left on the Chev. That engine is solid as a tank.

It gets 21 mpg average...too high for the clunkers program :>

I actually average 22mpg in daily driving; up to 29 or so straight highway

Thanks for this perspective. I'm taking it across the state and back twice later this month and have no concerns about doing it, so I guess I must feel it is trustworthy. But if anything else major (let's say cost to fix is over $1000) breaks the rest of this year, I'd have to seriously debate what to do.

Things like tires, brakes, belts, are routine and common wear-and-tear items that are going to happen to any car that age, and should not be factored in when considering whether it's a lemon or not. IMHO, of course.

Anyway, I'm not so sure there is a set answer to your original question. I think it's more of a gut feeling kind of thing. You just know when it's time to trade in.

I subtract out maintenance - so I come up with $3300/2 years, or $1650/year. My hard limit is 6 calculated car-payments a year, and my soft limit is 4 calculated car-payments a year. I'd buy a 20K car, less 4K in trade-in... a 3-year note is about $500/month in car-payment. So no, I wouldn't buy a new car, but it's close. For a less expensive new car, a teaser interest rate - I could be persuaded.

A slave is one of those items that can often go 7-10 years between changes...I would hate to have one that required the tranny to be dropped to get at it though. The Miata has one that is accessible through the wheel well, so the cost is about $50 or so and an hour on the driveway (less if I have someone to help with the bleeding of the line).

Brakes are another thing that OUGHT to be doable in the driveway and will save major $$$, especially if you can re-pack your own bearings while you are at it. But again, brakes are a routine item where the interval is dependent on use. Tires, yeah, ya gotta pay someone else to do it. Selections will vary and that can alter costs...

A/C is a comfort issue that you HOPE is a once a decade thing (if then). And yes, even in Houston or other parts of Texas, it IS a comfort thing, not a life or death, leave you stranded at the side of the road thing.

If you had to start getting into regular yanking of cylinder heads every few years to fix something, then and only then does it make sense to get rid of something paid that is long since paid for unless you truly wanted to get something new.

This may come as a shock to you, but not everybody wants to be out in the driveway in 105 degree weather repacking their bearings. In fact lots of people don't have driveways.

I could change my own oil too but I'd much rather give someone else $25 to do it while I sit in the air conditioned lobby and read a 2 year old magazine and sip rancid burnt coffee in a styrofoam cup.

I would ask your mechanic to do an assessment for you. They will generally be able to look over the car for potential new issues that might arise. For you, you've had 2 major issues this year + new tires. It starts to defeat the purpose of driving an old car.

I drive a 15 year old saab and go through the same conversation each time i pour money into it. Based on the above calculation, $140ish a month is far less than you would spend on a car payment. There are also great savings on insurance, license plates etc with older cars, so you are still better off.

For me the debate is not "old car vs car payment" but "old car vs newer, potentially more reliable old car" ie - i can either spend $1k on this car or go out and buy a new car for 4K.

I think the key is to make the "just one more big fix" decision. If you are not willing to pour 1K more into this car, sell it now, while everything is working. Otherwise plan now for the next fix (easier said than done).

The weather is something the driver/owner has control over...nobody ever MADE one do a brake job in the middle of summer I tend to do my major brake work when it is a cooler time of the year (or if I had to do something in the summer, do it first thing in the morning while it is still under 85).

Bearings...I pack those with a newspaper spread across the washing machine in the laundry room where I can be in air-conditioned comfort for those 10-15 minutes (I still do mine by hand, not machine).



I'd much rather do it myself and check everything else in the general area while I am under the vehicle...helps to save money on expenses down the road.

If one does not have a driveway, then yeah, I can see where the DIY approach could be difficult...I couldn't live without the driveway and garage.

Just to clarify, because my user name can be misleading, but I don't currently live in Texas. I used to, but don't right now. I'm in North Carolina. Which this week is really, really hot. Just like home. :>

And I do not have a driveway.

And I also know next to nothing about car repair and maintenance except that it is necessary.

I can check the oil level and I can replace the engine air filter and check my windshield wiper fluid. That's about all. I need to see if my community college does a car repairs for women thing :>

The two things I'm worried about are:

exhaust: Chevy had to replace the catalytic converter twice under warranty.

rear differential: it's noisy...but has been every since the idiots at one shop didn't change the fluid right or something and that was 35k miles ago.

Battery might come up soon but that's cheap. Either the Water pump or the Power Steering pump (I forget) was leaking around the 60k mile mark so it got replaced then.

Overall, it does drive fine for now. I really have no worries about taking it across the state later this month. But when that next major thing does happen, not sure what I'll do.

No way would I buy a different car yet. A $300.00 a month car payment for a decent used car would total $7200.00 over two years. You are no where near that yet in repair bills.

Nope. Double or triple the miles on your 3.8 and then ask again. Sure, little stuff will go here and there. And sometimes it might not seem so little, but the brains and heart of that car are solid. I drive a 1987 Audi 5000, and sure, every once in a while the blower motor will go or it'll need a CV joint, but besides that it's golden. This past spring when it needed a new master cylinder and suspension, I was seriously looking at junking it. But, I've gotten used to heated seats, sunroof, stick shift, and all the other stuff my car has in it, that I went and did it. It was $2000, but, hell, the car went 22 years on what it had, what's $2000 for another 22 years? haha. Oh yeah. And I learned how to do it all myself: struts, master brake cylinder, etc. It was fun!

Labor is quite often the majority expense in a repair bill. Especially for simple stuff like brake pads. I do my own whenever I can. Saves alot of money.

I have also done basic car work in the parking lot when I lived in apartments. Just quick and basic stuff, though, and nothing messy like oil changes.

I once knew a guy who rebuilt his engine in the parking lot of an auto parts store. This was back in the late 70s. Still not sure how he got away with it, but he did.

OT when it's C.A.R.S.-eligible ("cash for clunkers") LOL!

GM had a large batch of defective cats from their supplier. Unfortunately they didn't fail until 30-40K miles later so they didnt' catch them until they were already out in the field. They did issue TSB covering replacement at no cost, I believe up to 120K miles.
I just put in an aftermarket ($65), no further cat problems.

Interesting...first failure was around the 46k mark; second was around 70k something...maybe it'll last a while now.

I typically drive my cars into the ground. I have not seen a situation yet personally where I did not end up saving money doing repairs and routine maintenance.

My requirement for being a new (used) car

5000 (repair fund)
5000 (routine maintenance fund)
2 years of estimated excise tax, insurance, registration, AAA fees.

Once I have those established then I can begin saving for a new car. Take note I may never actually use all of the funds for maintenance and repair for xyz car, but that is my minimum requirement

I would be saving for a newer car. 4k to 6k can get you a pretty reliable car. I would get a good mechanic that you can trust with me to check it out. Also getting a Carfax on the on the car would be good due diligence.

interesting that you responded to this thread yesterday since my Camaro is once again at the mechanic and is going to cost me $700 to $800...coolant all sludged up and a leak at the intake manifold gasket. Fun.

I'm kinda debating between spending maybe $8000 or around $15000.

There could be a lot of good miles left with your Camaro.
I finally parted with mine last year.
I always liked that car.

Unfortunately for me, the vehicle became profiled with my
local law enforcement agency.

It was explained to me… repeatedly…
laughing…
that a local drug dealer had a car just like mine.

After the last "Out of the car… out of the car… hands up...
are you carrying a firearm… is a gun under the seat… "

…

R.I.P. '84 Camaro Berlinetta… with the big engine…
Reliable daily transportation for 24 years
Original Owner

There was a class action over that, the Dexcool coolant sludged up and rotted the intake gaskets. The claim period ended in 2008, unfortunately.

Great...just my luck.

"IF" the repairs cost more than a new car (INCLUDING INTEREST IF ANY) over the next 3 years...buy new

or

Slightly used...

My rule has always been if my expenses > the total price of the car, it's time to junk it and buy a new one. My older car is a 1987 toyota corolla GTS. Spent $500 on it and $503 to fix some mechanical problems I've had with it. I put it up for sale for about $1400 2 weeks ago and I already have offers ranging from $1000-$1300.

I never understood why people stick with their old cars forever and a day, dumping thousands into repairs to keep their clunkers on life support. Reminds me of my mom and her old 1986 dodge caravan with torn seats and 5 different shades of white on the exterior. It's that nostalgia factor and getting attatched to a vehicle that makes people reluctant to give it up. Hell, that's mainly why I kept my toyota for so long until times got tough.

There is usually a point where you can tell your car is on the verge of being a constant maintenance PITA.

Sometimes I agree with you slayer (usu. when I'm paying a repair bill), most days not.

I have an even older Corolla, but unless something MAJOR goes (transmission, engine, etc.) I'll probably keep her going. She's in good enough shape not to be an embarrasment (to me at least ). Between HUGE increases in car ins. (would probably cost me about $1.5k/yr more to insure a new car) and car payments, it's just not worth it. Add in the 8% sales tax I'd have to pay on the new purchase - forget it.

For now, anyway.

Yeah, right after you've written out the check for a large repair... only to find the shop is penciling you in for "one Thursday a month because you're gonna need it".
Problem is then you want to drive it even longer to get your money's worth out again.

My repairs NEVER are paid with a paper check

Makes it easier to swallow when you get MILES/POINTS/CASH BACK

<sigh> It was for illustration purposes George. I write 1 check a month to our electric utility.

Some days I feel this way and other days I don't. But I'm starting to feel that way more. Usually the same days I had over payment on the repairs.

As an update to my original post, here are the current repair totals, EXCLUDING Oil changes, brakes, tires (ie. reg. maintenance).

Oct. 2007: $1800 (Slave cylinder leak; replaced clutch while in there; rear differential service)

Feb. 2009: $600 (ignition switch lock cylinder failure)

August 2009: $1000 (Air Conditioning - new compressor and refrigerant)

Nov. 2009: $855 (intake manifold gasket, flush coolant due to Dexcool sludge - did not put Dexcool back in, oil change)

So that totals: $4255 which is in the ball park of what the car is worth.


Recent maintenance includes:

Nov. 2008: $700 for all 4 brakes; serp. belt; fuel filter; rear differential fluid service
Mar. 2009: $700 for 4 new tires
Sep. 2009: $125 rear differential fluid service

I average 3-4 oil changes per year (synthetic, so $60/70 a pop). I do the rear differential fluid once a year on average because some idiots messed it up at the 60k service and it has been loud ever since; change the fluid to keep an eye on it.

Most of the time I feel like the car is going to easily go quite a while yet...and in fact, even if I do go ahead and get a "newer, more reliable" car, I plan to keep the camaro too. Insurance on the Camaro runs me $800/yr right now but I keep pretty high coverages.

FWIW, the leading contenders in the "what used car am I interested in" race are a 2008 Ford Fusion or a 2008 Mazda 3 Hatchback.

I'm in the same position of debating wether to look into getting a newer car or keep going with mine, I've got a '97 geo prizm with 125000 miles on it and have had to put about $2000 dollars total in the past couple years (maintenance and oil changes) but it's a tough decision as so far it's been a good strong car and sometimes the newer cars are not made as good..so like you, I'm debating what's best to do (funds are an issue and also I'm rebuilding my credit and I"m hoping mine might make it another couple years and my credit will be better so I can hopefully get a good loan) I guess it would depend on your funds, if it's a good strong car, and it's not terribly old, if it were me, I'd keep it for a few more years.

+1 and lower taxes on older cars too! (if your state has property tax on cars that is.)

Newer cars tend to be much safer, and that Mazda 3 is an excellent choice for a slightly used car.

I really want a mazda 3, I looked at one a few months ago and it was a little over 20 grand, and from what I"ve read thus far (and my friend drives a mazda 6 and has had great experience with hers) it seems to be a really good car, So that's my hope is to make mine go a couple more years while my credit rebuilds and I have time save some $$ and be able to get an '09 used.

I was in the same boat just recently... First I had a coil spring break, so I had to have both and the struts replaced. Then an engine mount. Of course, less than two months later, the whole engine gave up the ghost. It had to be replaced. Of course, I had several unexpected expenses this year already, so it came at a really bad time.

By the time the engine broke down, I was seriously wondering if I should keep the car or get it fixed. I decided to get it fixed. First of all, the car was paid off. Second, sure it sucks to put down $2700 on a new engine, but if I had spent the same amount of money on another car, it would be a gamble. Sure, I could get lucky and get a car that will last a long time still. But possibly I would get a clunker, that might need the same amount of work, or even more.

Or I could get a new (or slightly used) car, and be tied to a car payment for the next three-four years, since there was no way I could pay cash for a car.

At least I know in my car, that most of the front end is in good condition. The engine has half the miles the car has. It's still a gamble, the transmission could go next... But if I get three, four years out of it, without any major work, I would say it's worth it. And past that is all gravy.

What's the car you ask? 2003 Focus, 90000 miles. Way too young to have the engine break down, though. Focuses have generally a good reputation, so that was a disappointment.

A Carfax on any used car that you are considering would be a great investment.

So would a compression test, especially for a 4-cylinder. Never did it, wish I had.

Sure. Actually, I got that with this particular car. I even had my mechanic check the car out. But things do happen. That you can count on.