I am within weeks of filing a Chapter 7 BK. It looks like it going to happen. I have several issues that I believe give me a chance to at least pare them down to something I can payoff by the time I'm 65 (I'm 51 now).

Anyone hear of the Reynolds case out of Minnesota? It went to 2 levels of appeals and she won. All of her student loans (over $150,000 were discharged) She was around 35 and she had around $700 month in disposable income.

She used a claim that the burden of her loans was detrimental on her already fragile mental health, the 8th Circuit bought it. My case will be similar in some ways, dissimilar in others.

Any one want to weigh in?

All I can say is good luck! From what I've heard, even the woman in the case you described was lucky.

don't count on it, that way you won't be too freaked out when it doesn't happen.

Ever heard of not putting all your eggs in one basket? I would strongly suggest that you consider the fact that this very well may not go the way in which you intend. And come up with a back up plan.

And I sincerely hope that you didn't come here seeking an audience for this farce you're about to start.

Goodness, look at the experts crawl out of the woodwork.

Why do you say it is a farce?

What experience do you have?

What research have you done?

And by what experience or research do you make this claim?

if you seriously looking for an answer then you would not have responded this way AND you would have posted in the BK forum NOT the SL forum. Next you'll be lauding Chuck's scam book.

Again, either answer the question as to your knowledge or lack of knowledge of the book you condemn, or I will simply peg you as an Internet big mouth, unworthy of further attention.

Your choice.

LOL. a newbie troll labels me a big mouth.

Why should I take your QUIZ? How is that "book" NOT a SCAM?

People with integrity are able and willing to back up what they say.

You stated that the book is a scam...back it up or sit down and be quiet.

if your book is so great, why are you filing BK?

Pauper, I would strongly suggest you back off before you get your first official warning. If you're here to hawk the book, then take it elsewhere. We have no need of your "expertise" here.

If you're here looking for help, then that's one thing, but I will not allow you (or anyone else) to come here and start trying to set yourself up as a Student Loan Expert with absolutely NOTHING to back that claim up.

Put up or shut up. It really is that simple.

[/quote]

Again, either answer the question as to your knowledge or lack of knowledge of the book you condemn, or I will simply peg you as an Internet big mouth, unworthy of further attention.

Your choice.
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Quilty is quite knowledgeable and I would suggest that you cool your tone. You asked for comments and obviously you dont like what you are being told. Do your own research.

Pauper- Did you READ the Reynolds case? Did you see the documentation that she had proving her mental health issues? Can you do the same?


and I'd strongly suggest you do a bit more research on the subject of SLs being discharged...

can it be done...yes...

is it as simple to do as you're making it out to be...what did Reynold's attorneys cost? Did it offset the amount she may have been ordered to pay?


As for what experience there is here to say your plan likely won't work...how about MILLIONS of people that did NOT get their SLs discharged in BK? Compared to the few that have? And ONLY having those discharged when they can prove undue hardship?

[quote name='LynnInMN' date='Jan 10 2006, 08:21 AM' post='1213409']
[/quote]

Again, either answer the question as to your knowledge or lack of knowledge of the book you condemn, or I will simply peg you as an Internet big mouth, unworthy of further attention.

Your choice.
[/quote]

Quilty is quite knowledgeable and I would suggest that you cool your tone. You asked for comments and obviously you dont like what you are being told. Do your own research.
[/quote]


I have been attacked for suggesting that I am close to filing bankruptcy and for hawking a book. Show me one respectful, useful comment that has been made in response to what I have said.

posts 2,3,4 and 14....

And 13.

There is no way to sugar coat this: That is a lie

I was attacked and I ask for proof of claims made and I AM ACCUSED OF ABUSING THE BOARD?

Ridiculous

You know nothing about student loans and bankruptcy.

The Reynolds case was taken pro bono by a firm in Minneapoilis. I have read the original trial summary ( 15 pages), the first appeal summary (12 pages) and the final appeal at the 8th Circuit en banc session ( 13 pages) I also listend by audio file to the 60 minute arguments made at the 8th circuit by both the debtor and attorneys representing the lenders.

The people who did not have their S.L. loans discharged in BK, and it is not in the "millions" as you say, most likely did not desevrve having them discharged or offered poor reasons for having them discharged.

you were given advice in posts 2,3, and 4...then you attacked the very people trying to help prevent you making a mistake...

Jesus...will someone PLEASE ban this troll??? Yeah, we know nothing. (Then why the hell is he here???)

pauper, you asked if anyone had read this book. Everyone said no. Why not move along now? Or do you have another question?

If you are not looking for advice, then I will assume you selected this board to hawk a book. That is my prerogative. These boards are heavily moderated, and we did not invite you to be a moderator. If you want to advertise there is a link in every google ad, feel free.

Don't argue it's a losing proposition.

*lmao* Oh REALLY? On what do you base the assertion in red above?


you're claiming that millions of people HAVE had their loans BK'd? Evidence please....

how many people have filed BK in the past 10 years? Of those, how many had student loans? Out of those, how many were discharged?

In which post did I urge anyoen to read the book?

I was starting to think I misjudged pauper, but his/her obloquies have convinced me of my original judgement.

perhaps pauper can give us some specific tidbits that will convince us he/she does have knowledge CBers lack?

If you don't know about the Reynolds case, a very important case in this field that was filed originally in 2000, then you are ignorant of the issue.

I never claimed millions had their SL loans dischrged.

You claimed millions have been denied. Your proof plese.

Why are you on this board? For social contact or to get things done?

define "things"

Why are you on this board?

Ok...let's try to discuss this without insults, ok?


you have Reynolds....that's fine...I'll give you that one (a woman with mental issues got her loans discharged)


Let's see now....I can think of a dozen (literally) that were NOT discharged....and I bet if we set up a poll here, we could find at LEAST 100 on this board alone...


Millions of people have filed BK in the past, say, 10 years...can we agree on that? I think we can...let's call it 10 million for the sake of argument (please, if you disagree with any of these numbers being used, feel free to substitute your own)


of those, how many would you think had student loans? Can we say 20% for argument's sake? I hope so, since I really don't feel like looking up very many filings to get an accurate estimate...




if you accept those numbers above, then we can safely say that 2 million people file BK and had student loans....


Question for you: how many were discharged?




now....if you won't/can't answer the question above (even with an educated guess or estimate), then this conversation is over



now...if you'd like to discuss your PERSONAL circumstances, that'd be fine...why do you feel that you'd qualify for discharge? Perhaps if we had that information, we could use our experience to tell you if it's likely or not...

I don't need to justify my existence to anyone except the owners & mods.

He's here 'cause we like him. And he keeps the troll population down, sorta like keeping a cat around to keep the mice population down.

LMAO!!!!!!!!! You go girl!!!!

Pauper is a troll plain and simple.
When this was posted in the bk forum, I asked some resonable questions that could get the ball rolling on an intelligent discussion but, no response.


It's difficult to weigh in with no facts.
What's the totality of your situation? Post a link to the Reynolds case and give us some comparision?
One big question is, are you filing in the 8th circuit? If not, are there any comparable cases in the circuit that has jurisdiction in your case?

I always heard that the three things that can't (generally I guess) be included in BK are student loans and money owed to the IRS, and also child support.

edited for spelling error

I found a group of folks, this guy appears to be one of them, who are beating their heads against a rock, because they feel it is all unfair. It is very one-sided, I agree. But the laws that are in place are the laws we have to work with. People can kick and scream, but that doesn't change anything. Being educated and knowing what you're getting into before you sign on that dotted line is your best defense, at this point.

I wondered where these people were coming from - at least now I know.

Pauper - link us to Reynolds, please. Then we can get on with the discussion in an informed manner.

I found it easily earlier by doing a google search....student loan bankruptcy Reynolds MN

If it's worth discussing, find the case and send it to me, I'll upload it to the server so everyone can read.

Here is a link, Breeze and all who are interested.

http://www.nacua.org/documents/Reynolds_v_PennHighEdAsst.pdf

Haven't had time to read it yet myself so I have no idea what it actually says.

LOL, thanks - I got it - it's in a sticky thread now. It's a very sad, wierd story, huh?

Based on the facts as presented, I'd say the court got it right.

$142K is a hell of a lot of money to repay on $30K a year with a serious illiness thrown into the mix.
I don't see it opening any floodgates though. It went through 2 levels of appeal and took 4 years. And, the sad fact is, the petitioner is seriously ill with little hope of improvement.
My question is, why not apply for a hardship discharge from the DOE? At another site I haunt, a lady in her early 30's got over $20K worth of loans discharged {from the DOE-not bk} due to health reasons. She said it took 2 years.

I wondered about that myself. At any rate, I wouldn't want to be her. Sad story.

Hmmm ... interesting case. I would like to know what her financial position is now.

In addition to the issues associated with mental health, one of the factors associated with the undue hardship in this case appears to have actually surrounded the husband. The concurring opinion noted that the loans were taken in the period prior to the marriage and the $700 "surplus" was derived from the combined incomes of husband and wife...therefore, to require that $700 to go to the loan that the husband was not obligated placed an undue burden upon him.

In short, there is a very specific set of circumstances to this case that would be difficult to replicate. I doubt that the majority of those seeking to use guidance from some book off the web are going to be willing to secure a professional in the mental health field to create a history of malady for the purposes of BK'ing student loans.

It also remains that the decision is not binding upon other Circuits except and unless it ultimately had been appealed to the SCotUS and a decision came down from the people in the robes...

In short...walking on a large debt accrued during a period of education is not going to be anywhere near as simple as OP and the author (if they were different people) would make it appear.

Well, and wasn't that a "surplus" based on the perceived ability for him to attain additional work? I mean, he wasn't CURRENTLY making the amount that the BK court had set, right?

This isn't the type of situation that your average borrower would be able to replicate, I agree. It's sort of the "perfect storm" theory, isn't it?

Well, there may be a couple of reasons why she didn't go that route. Or maybe she did try to go that route and was unable to get them discharged; I've heard of people that were unable to get SLs discharged even though a doctor considered them to be completely and totally disabled.

I'm thinking that since they fought the discharge, the lender considered her able to pay back the monies owed; I doubt that they would have accepted a hardship discharge.

Well, and wasn't that a "surplus" based on the perceived ability for him to attain additional work? I mean, he wasn't CURRENTLY making the amount that the BK court had set, right?


To give this pot of soup anther stir, there was a sentence or two in the ruling refering to the husbands children and the surplus was needed for their support. Sounds like he has additional family obligations.
I think the case was decided correctly based on the law, common sense and compassion for other parties caught up in this mess.

I had moderated pauper's posts, based on the acrimonious exchanges taking place here. She has apologized and asked for her posting priviledges to be restored, and we have agreed to that.

Hopefully, she can give us enough information to comment on her situation. I do not think she is hawking the book. Unfortunately, we deal with so many spammers in one day, that we react automatically to someone posting those kinds of comments and linking to something that is for sale. I don't think that's the case here.

If you google the author, you will find his info and webpages - I'll leave the conclusions up to you. Basically, from his website info, I've concluded it's an "I did it, you can too" book. Feel free to discuss it whenever you want to, we won't blast you off of CB for talking about it.

ETA - give the lady a chance to talk, and be polite. I don't think she's trolling. I think she expected us to applaud, and we did the opposite.

http://creditboards.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=141693

the book in question is here. I'd give you the Amazon linky, but ahhhhhhhhh you can only buy it from the author, it's self-published.