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Requirement to show Id


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528 replies to this topic

#1 Elotemuygrande

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Posted 03 March 2005 - 10:51 PM

I remember reading somewhere on the forums that merchants are not allowed by Mastercard policy to ask for Id from customers using a Mastercard. Is this really true? I know most of the time when I go to Frys here in Texas they ask to see a photo ID when I present my Chase MC. I would like nothing better than to get those jerks at Frys in trouble...they've hassled me one to many times at the door :-) This also happens to me at wal-mart occasionally, but in those cases it seems it's at the request of the card issuer. Anyone know about this?



#2 GEORGE

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Posted 03 March 2005 - 10:54 PM

I remember reading somewhere on the forums that merchants are not allowed by Mastercard policy to ask for Id from customers using a Mastercard. Is this really true? I know most of the time when I go to Frys here in Texas they ask to see a photo ID when I present my Chase MC. I would like nothing better than to get those jerks at Frys in trouble...they've hassled me one to many times at the door :-) This also happens to me at wal-mart occasionally, but in those cases it seems it's at the request of the card issuer. Anyone know about this?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

ID IS NOT REQUIRED FOR A SIGNED CARD

WALK AWAY WITH-OUT THE "STUFF"

#3 Elotemuygrande

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Posted 03 March 2005 - 10:55 PM

Answering my own question I found the following...

1.  Some states prohibit the use of ID swiping machines - more should join
them.
2.  MasterCard and VISA strictly prohibit merchants from demanding to see
additional ID when using your signed credit card - report violators at
<http://www.mastercar...tactUsMV&rgn=1.



#4 Elotemuygrande

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Posted 03 March 2005 - 10:58 PM

I remember reading somewhere on the forums that merchants are not allowed by Mastercard policy to ask for Id from customers using a Mastercard. Is this really true? I know most of the time when I go to Frys here in Texas they ask to see a photo ID when I present my Chase MC. I would like nothing better than to get those jerks at Frys in trouble...they've hassled me one to many times at the door :-) This also happens to me at wal-mart occasionally, but in those cases it seems it's at the request of the card issuer. Anyone know about this?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

ID IS NOT REQUIRED FOR A SIGNED CARD

WALK AWAY WITH-OUT THE "STUFF"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Next time I will!
This doesn't seem to be widely know...I see people all the time asked for their ID and they comply because they don't know better. Maybe there should be a note in the newbie forums...

#5 daisy

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Posted 03 March 2005 - 11:12 PM

MC and Visa POLICY is trumped by the LAW--which allows merchants to ask you for id for MANY reasons.

For example--most people know that you can be carded if you buy alcohol--but you can also be carded if you are buying a marker or liquid paper or paint.

There are many many laws that not only enable but REQUIRE merchants to ask for ID and in all cases the LAW trumps the POLICY of the issuing agent of the card.

#6 Quit Screwing Me

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Posted 03 March 2005 - 11:15 PM

AMEN Daisy!

I can feel the flames already, but I think it's a stupid policy to not be allowed to ask for ID. It should be policy that anyone that supports that policy should never be allowed to claim ID theft or fraud. Supporting the NO-ID policy ENCOURAGES fraud.

Edited by Quit Screwing Me, 03 March 2005 - 11:16 PM.


#7 mrskippy

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Posted 03 March 2005 - 11:24 PM

Visa/MC shouldn't have rules against asking for ID. They should encourage the practice, as an effort to combat theft. I mean, they have "Verified By Visa" for online purchases. Why not come up with a security method for in-store purchases.

I'm not afraid to show my ID when asked and actually appreciate it when they do ask. Of course, my BofA Check Card (and soon my BofA Visa) have photo protection, so no ID is ever asked for.

Also, Target almost always asks for ID, especially if I'm using my Red (Guest) Card.

Think about it. At most places you swipe (or insert at Target) a POS machine. The merchant never handles your card. You swipe/insert and sign. There isn't even a way to check a signature. Your name might appear on screen and a photo ID is the only way to verify ID.

I could understand the policy when you would hand the card to the merchant and they held until after you signed (and compared the signature). But, I can't think of anyplace doing that anymore.

The gas stations now require you to enter a zip. Good security measure.

#8 Elotemuygrande

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Posted 03 March 2005 - 11:31 PM

Official policies:

Mastercard
prohibited by Section 9.11.2 of
http://www.mastercar...chant_rules.pdf

Visa
While a merchant may ask for identification if fraud is suspected, it is contrary to Visa policy to require the consumer to show identification as a condition of the sale. If a merchant asks for identification and the consumer is unable or unwilling to produce it, the merchant is still obliged to accept the consumer’s Visa card. Consumers who experience refusal of service based on identification may either call their card issuer to report the problem or call 1-800-VISA-911.
from
http://usa.visa.com/....html#anchor_18

Discover Card
Section 10 of policy manual appears to permit it.
http://www.discoverb.../operat_reg.pdf

A little vague for Amex
"Verify that the person presenting the Card is the Cardmember"
http://www125.americ...tectTransaction

#9 800SomeDay

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Posted 04 March 2005 - 12:05 AM

Please include the following information so our customer service staff can better serve you:

• Your name
• Merchant name
• Merchant address
• The nature of the problem you wish to report. For example:
• In order to make a MasterCard purchase, the merchant/retailer required a minimum or maximum amount.
• The merchant/retailer is adding a charge for using your MasterCard card.
• The merchant/retailer required identification.
• A merchant/retailer displaying the MasterCard decal in their window refused to accept my MasterCard card.

This is from the first link listed above. Quite often
car dealers will only allow a customer to put $2000-$3000
on a credit card, this is also a violation.

#10 800SomeDay

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Posted 04 March 2005 - 12:11 AM

I can't believe all the posts supporting asking for ID.

What do you think the authorization terminal is for?

Report the card lost or stolen and card will generally
be denied 5 seconds later anywhere in the world.

And you are not responsible for fraudulent charges.

I always wonder why the only time they ask for ID
is on a charge of about $5 or less.

Edited by 800SomeDay, 04 March 2005 - 12:37 AM.


#11 Elotemuygrande

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Posted 04 March 2005 - 12:24 AM

I can't believe all the posts supporting asking for ID.

What do you think the authorization terminal is for?

Report the card lost or stolen and card will generally
be denied 5 seconds later anywhere in the world.

And you are not responsible for fraudulent charges.

I get frustrated that the only time they ask for ID
is on a charge of about $5 or less.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Yeah, fraud doesn't worry me too much. The only time I've had problems I called Chase and they took questionable stuff off immediately. They are so easy about it you could probably easily get rid of legitimate charges(I'd never think of it though). I got paranoid one time and they issued me a new card with minimal fuss. Gonna use one time CC numbers online from now on just to avoid any hassle though.

#12 JerseyBaby

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Posted 04 March 2005 - 12:42 AM

MC and Visa POLICY is trumped by the LAW--which allows merchants to ask you for id for MANY reasons.

For example--most people know that you can be carded if you buy alcohol--but you can also be carded if you are buying a marker or liquid paper or paint.

There are many many laws that not only enable but REQUIRE merchants to ask for ID and in all cases the LAW trumps the POLICY of the issuing agent of the card.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That may be true, but those instances of asking for ID require it for purchases using any payment method, including cash.

What is being discussed here are merchants who ask for ID only when using a credit card. It's contrary to the rules set forth be the credit card companies.

It's also an invasion of my privacy, and puts us one step backward toward a society that asks to "show me your papers!"

#13 orangecrush

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Posted 04 March 2005 - 12:44 AM

MC and Visa POLICY is trumped by the LAW--which allows merchants to ask you for id for MANY reasons.

For example--most people know that you can be carded if you buy alcohol--but you can also be carded if you are buying a marker or liquid paper or paint.

There are many many laws that not only enable but REQUIRE merchants to ask for ID and in all cases the LAW trumps the POLICY of the issuing agent of the card.


I have several merchant accounts and have never heard of a law anywhere that allows a merchant to ask for id ( and MC and Visa send me updates on current events involving credit cards). There are laws that prohibit it though.

In EVERY merchant agreement, it states that merchants are not allowed to ask for additional id. If the law states you ask for id and you do so, MC or Visa will yank your merchant account if someone complains.

In my town, about 10 years ago, the cops thought it would be a good idea to have merchants ask for id and even fingerprint (in some cases) people that used credit cards. They even sent around brochures and had training for the merchants on how to prevent fraud. I persoanlly know of 4 that were fined for doing it and one that is blacklisted from ever accepting MC or Visa. I was told by one merchant that MC informed the cops that it was against their policy and that they should inform the merchants of the consequences. Merchanst stopped doing it.


Visa/MC shouldn't have rules against asking for ID. They should encourage the practice, as an effort to combat theft. I mean, they have "Verified By Visa" for online purchases. Why not come up with a security method for in-store purchases.

I'm not afraid to show my ID when asked and actually appreciate it when they do ask. Of course, my BofA Check Card (and soon my BofA Visa) have photo protection, so no ID is ever asked for


The rules are there for a reason. A high percentage of credit card fraud involves employees of merchants. If you show your id to a cashier. She looks at it and remembers the zip or part of your address. She now has your card number and enough info to pass address verification on orders. Some state's driver's licenses have you ss#.

Local restaurant in my town had a problem with fraud. Employees used customer cards and info to rack up hundreds of thousands of dollars in charges. The restauraunt is out of business.



If a merchant doesn't like the policy then they don't have to accept the credit cards.


http://creditboards....pic=63948&st=50

http://creditboards....topic=45012&hl=

#14 orangecrush

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Posted 04 March 2005 - 12:50 AM

I posted the following in another thread...a long time go. The urls may have changed.


If a merchant asks you for additional id to use your card you are supposed to report them.

http://www.mastercar...ntactUsMV&rgn=1

If as a merchant you accept an unsigned card, even if it has see id on the back, you are subject to having your merchant account revoked, if that card is later involved in a fraud. It can and does happen. Once you are on the MC/Visa blacklist it is nearly impossible to get another merchant account.

http://usa.visa.com/....html?it=search

From the above URL for merchants:

Dealing With Unsigned Cards

If the signature panel is left blank...



Ask the cardholder to sign the card, and provide current government identification such as a driver's license or passport (if local law permits).


Compare the signatures on the transaction receipt, the card, and the additional identification.


If the signatures appear reasonably the same and the authorization request is approved, complete the transaction.


If the cardholder refuses to sign the card, do not accept the card.


If you have a "See ID" in place of signature...



Politely explain that "See ID" is not a valid substitute for a signature.


Ask the cardholder to sign the card (over the "See ID") in your presence.


Ask for some form of positive ID and compare the signature on the ID with the signature on the card.


If the cardholder refuses to sign the card, do not accept the card



I live in a college town. Credit card fraud is very common.

I know of two merchants that had their mastercard accounts revoked when they accepted unsigned cards. The cardholder claimed she had not made the charges. She initiated chargebacks. Visa investigated. Little Miss Fraudster informed Visa that she had never signed her cards. Visa charged back the merchants' accounts for the purchases. One merchant lost over $1000 another lost around $1500. About 2 months after this incident both of them were booted from accepting mastercard and visa for violating this policy.

If your card is ever stolen and it is not signed. Visa and Mastercard will try to hold you responsible for the charges, which they really can't, since you did not sign the card and agree to the terms. However you will be very unpleasantly surprised when you are unable to get a credit card from either company, even with excellent credit.

When I was in college a friend and quite a few employees at a national women's retail chain, lost their jobs for accepting unsigned credit cards and ones that said "see id". The company sent in a secret shopper and about half the store's workforce accepted unsigned cards. She didn't want to make customers mad by telling them she could not accept an unsigned card. Later she wished she had an angry customer instead of no job.

For card holders it is your choice...sign or risk not having the card accepted. For merchants it is not a choice...don't accept unsigned cards.

#15 mrskippy

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Posted 04 March 2005 - 01:39 AM

Smart banks will follow the lead of BofA, Chase, and I believe Citi, by allowing customers to put a photo and signature on the front of the card.

At the very least, they need to have safeguards in place for POS (no merchant actually handling the card) situations.

It's one thing when you swipe and enter a PIN. With the PIN it's pretty safe to assume that you are the cardholder. However, when you can sign the screen (Best Buy, Target, CompUSA, and many others are doing it this way now) you gotta be careful. Moreso, whenever I sign the screen, my signature looks NOTHING like it is on my card. Given this fact, anybody could sign the screen and it would go through.

True, I could dispute fraud charges were my card lost/stolen, but what if that lost/stolen card is a debit card. Given that most banks will pretty much run through any card transaction (even on overdrawn accounts in some cases) you could potentially be in serious trouble. NSF, returned item fees, etc. Sure, you'll not be liable with the bank, but you will be liable with anyone who accepted a check that goes NSF or an ACH item that goes NSF.

Here's an idea:

Almost all credit card companies issue a PIN for purposes of getting a cash advance. How about if you were required to enter the PIN when you signed? It goes through to Visa/MC and they approve/decline accordingly. That would erase the need to ask for ID.

IIRC, Verified By Visa, had something like this a few years ago where you used a PIN when buying off the Web. Not sure why this stopped though.

Of course, this wouldn't work in situations where the merchant takes the card, but in those cases the merchant could compare your signature (as they are supposed to, if I am to understand everything).

Than again, there is the other issue ...

Card stealers could (and do) work on signature copying.

#16 creditfreedom

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Posted 04 March 2005 - 03:58 AM

I have both my signature AND "see ID" on my cards.

In those instances where the merchant actually handles my cards they usually don't ask. I WANT them to ask because there was someone in my town who is often mistaken for me, or asked if she is my sister, and i have an EX who can sign my name fairly well...

I don't mind being asked for ID...and I don't really understand what the hangup is...the cashier only sees it for an instant, then she moves on to the next customer. I worked retail...reading customer credit cards, after the signature, was the last thing on my mind.

CF

#17 Mystry62

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Posted 04 March 2005 - 06:46 AM

Smart banks will follow the lead of BofA, Chase, and I believe Citi, by allowing customers to put a photo and signature on the front of the card.

At the very least, they need to have safeguards in place for POS (no merchant actually handling the card) situations.

It's one thing when you swipe and enter a PIN. With the PIN it's pretty safe to assume that you are the cardholder. However, when you can sign the screen (Best Buy, Target, CompUSA, and many others are doing it this way now) you gotta be careful. Moreso, whenever I sign the screen, my signature looks NOTHING like it is on my card. Given this fact, anybody could sign the screen and it would go through.

True, I could dispute fraud charges were my card lost/stolen, but what if that lost/stolen card is a debit card. Given that most banks will pretty much run through any card transaction (even on overdrawn accounts in some cases) you could potentially be in serious trouble. NSF, returned item fees, etc. Sure, you'll not be liable with the bank, but you will be liable with anyone who accepted a check that goes NSF or an ACH item that goes NSF.

Here's an idea:

Almost all credit card companies issue a PIN for purposes of getting a cash advance. How about if you were required to enter the PIN when you signed? It goes through to Visa/MC and they approve/decline accordingly. That would erase the need to ask for ID.

IIRC, Verified By Visa, had something like this a few years ago where you used a PIN when buying off the Web. Not sure why this stopped though.

Of course, this wouldn't work in situations where the merchant takes the card, but in those cases the merchant could compare your signature (as they are supposed to, if I am to understand everything).

Than again, there is the other issue ...

Card stealers could (and do) work on signature copying.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



As someone who, in a previous life, worked all day filing Reg E claims for fraudulent and misposted ACH and checkcard items, I absolutely think that having to put in a pin # when making a CC purchase would deter much of the fraud that goes on. Believe me when I tell you it is a LOT harder to claim "fraud" when a pin # is used. Not to mention, requiring a pin for purchases would also prevent a lot of customer fraud, such as the case mentioned above where the girl didn't sign her card and then claimed fraud. it would have been so much harder for her to claim fraud if pins had been used. (first question I ALWAYS asked was, "well, maam how did the person who stole your card know your pin number . . . and about 80% of the time the response to that question is, "well there's a couple of people who know it" WHAT, WHAT?!?!? Don't ever give your friends/family members that info. If you want them to use your account add them on as a signer and get them their own card. Did you know that, at least in the case of BoA, if you EVER allow someone other than you to use your card you are liable for any and all fraudulent charges that you may claim on that card at a later date? Even if you just gave the card to your kid to run in the store and grab a gallon of milk . . . that policy can really tick a person off and I've had more than one "unpleasant conversation" about that. )

#18 GEORGE

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Posted 04 March 2005 - 07:43 AM

MC and Visa POLICY is trumped by the LAW--which allows merchants to ask you for id for MANY reasons.

For example--most people know that you can be carded if you buy alcohol--but you can also be carded if you are buying a marker or liquid paper or paint.

There are many many laws that not only enable but REQUIRE merchants to ask for ID and in all cases the LAW trumps the POLICY of the issuing agent of the card.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

YOUR MIXING APPLES and ORANGES!!!

Asking for ID for BOOZE and CANCER STICKS and LIQUID PAPER and SPRAY PAINT is fine...

BUT you do that for **CASH** customers also!!!

THE "ID" IS FOR THE PRODUCT BOUGHT...NOT FOR THE CARD!!!

So "IF" the customer is 72 years old and buying BOOZE and using a credit card you don't need ID!!!!!!!

Edited by GEORGE, 04 March 2005 - 07:44 AM.


#19 GEORGE

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Posted 04 March 2005 - 07:46 AM

AMEN Daisy!

I can feel the flames already, but I think it's a stupid policy to not be allowed to ask for ID.  It should be policy that anyone that supports that policy should never be allowed to claim ID theft or fraud.  Supporting the NO-ID policy ENCOURAGES fraud.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

"IF" YOU LIKE SHOWING ID...GIVE THE CASHIER YOUR ID WITH YOUR CARD!!!

#20 soldiergurl74

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Posted 04 March 2005 - 07:52 AM

Ok, for those of you that don't like showing ID: Do you think that signature matching (keeping in mind that your sig often doesn't look the same when you sign on one of those electronic machines) is sufficient enough to prevent fraud?

if a merchant institutes another layer of protection (i.e. ID checking), why does it matter so much to you? They are doing it for your and their protection? You already have your wallet out, just show your damn ID...

Let the merchant worry about the VISA/Mastercard policy, not you.

#21 GEORGE

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Posted 04 March 2005 - 07:56 AM

I can't believe all the posts supporting asking for ID.

What do you think the authorization terminal is for?

Report the card lost or stolen and card will generally
be denied 5 seconds later anywhere in the world.

And you are not responsible for fraudulent charges.

I always wonder why the only time they ask for ID
is on a charge of about $5 or less.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

THAT CAME OUT OF ALL THE FOOLS (uninformed credit card consumers) THAT USE...

SEE ID
CID
SEE LICENSE


I JUST WAS AT THE POST OFFICE

"ALL CREDIT CARDS MUST BE SIGNED WITH YOUR NAME...CID...SEE ID...SEE LICENSE IS NOT A SIGNATURE"

I had a BIG SMILE on my face when I saw that sign (always do)

Some time they are going to ask WHY I'M SO HAPPY...HERE'S YOUR SIGN

#22 GEORGE

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Posted 04 March 2005 - 07:59 AM

Ok, for those of you that don't like showing ID:  Do you think that signature matching (keeping in mind that your sig often doesn't look the same when you sign on one of those electronic machines) is sufficient enough to prevent fraud?

if a merchant institutes another layer of protection (i.e. ID checking), why does it matter so much to you?  They are doing it for your and their protection?  You already have your wallet out, just show your damn ID...

Let the merchant worry about the VISA/Mastercard policy, not you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

NO I DON'T HAVE MY WALLET OUT...it is in my pants pocket

#23 GEORGE

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Posted 04 March 2005 - 08:04 AM

I posted the following in another thread...a long time go. The urls may have changed.


If a merchant asks you for additional id to use your card you are supposed to report them.

http://www.mastercar...ntactUsMV&rgn=1

If as a merchant you accept an unsigned card, even if it has see id on the back, you are subject to having your merchant account revoked, if that card is later involved in a fraud. It can and does happen. Once you are on the MC/Visa blacklist it is nearly impossible to get another merchant account.

http://usa.visa.com/....html?it=search

From the above URL for merchants:

Dealing With Unsigned Cards

If the signature panel is left blank...



Ask the cardholder to sign the card, and provide current government identification such as a driver's license or passport (if local law permits).


Compare the signatures on the transaction receipt, the card, and the additional identification.


If the signatures appear reasonably the same and the authorization request is approved, complete the transaction.


If the cardholder refuses to sign the card, do not accept the card.


If you have a "See ID" in place of signature...



Politely explain that "See ID" is not a valid substitute for a signature.


Ask the cardholder to sign the card (over the "See ID") in your presence.


Ask for some form of positive ID and compare the signature on the ID with the signature on the card.


If the cardholder refuses to sign the card, do not accept the card



I live in a college town. Credit card fraud is very common.

I know of two merchants that had their mastercard accounts revoked when they accepted unsigned cards. The cardholder claimed she had not made the charges. She initiated chargebacks. Visa investigated. Little Miss Fraudster informed Visa that she had never signed her cards. Visa charged back the merchants' accounts for the purchases. One merchant lost over $1000 another lost around $1500. About 2 months after this incident both of them were booted from accepting mastercard and visa for violating this policy.

If your card is ever stolen and it is not signed. Visa and Mastercard will try to hold you responsible for the charges, which they really can't, since you did not sign the card and agree to the terms. However you will be very unpleasantly surprised when you are unable to get a credit card from either company, even with excellent credit.

When I was in college a friend and quite a few employees at a national women's retail chain, lost their jobs for accepting unsigned credit cards and ones that said "see id". The company sent in a secret shopper and about half the store's workforce accepted unsigned cards. She didn't want to make customers mad by telling them she could not accept an unsigned card. Later she wished she had an angry customer instead of no job.

For card holders it is your choice...sign or risk not having the card accepted. For merchants it is not a choice...don't accept unsigned cards.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The SIGNATURE STRIP says "VOID WITHOUT SIGNATURE" or "NOT VALID IF NOT SIGNED" or some such words...

So a business is excepting a VOID CARD!!! (technically)

#24 GEORGE

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Posted 04 March 2005 - 08:10 AM

MORE...

I know showing ID can prevent a STOLEN CARD FROM BEING USED AT POS...but I thought it is in the rules you got AND AGREE WITH THAT YOU MUST REPORT YOUR CARD LOST AT YOUR EARLIEST CONVIENCE...

Your card is shut off in about 2 seconds WORLD WIDE AND WILL BE DENIED AT POS

#25 GEORGE

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Posted 04 March 2005 - 08:13 AM

Ok, for those of you that don't like showing ID:  Do you think that signature matching (keeping in mind that your sig often doesn't look the same when you sign on one of those electronic machines) is sufficient enough to prevent fraud?

if a merchant institutes another layer of protection (i.e. ID checking), why does it matter so much to you?  They are doing it for your and their protection?  You already have your wallet out, just show your damn ID...

Let the merchant worry about the VISA/Mastercard policy, not you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

NO I DON'T HAVE MY WALLET OUT...it is in my pants pocket

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

SINCE THE "MERCHANT" DOESN'T KNOW VISA/MC POLICY...I HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT IT FOR THEM




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