66 replies to this topic

[radi8]

I don't question the existence of God. I do question my fellow man. I don't attend church as often as I should. That basically rules out tithing.

I'm not one for organized religion. I find it a personal thing, often obscured and cluttered by the man-made things organized religion tends to interject.
I believe I'm a faithful person, one that believes in God and lives the Christian teachings...but haven't found brick and mortar churches helpful.
So what I'm getting to, is tithing in the traditional sense doesn't fit me, I don't attend any particular church.
DW and I contribute to the Salvation Army instead.
We've found them to be nothing but helpful to people in need. They exist to serve in a nonjudgemental way, many folk in our area depend on them for food, winter heat and other necessities that they cannot afford.

Just mentioning it should you feel the desire to contribute but have uncertainty as to where or how.

[breeze]

Well, when it comes to how much to give, and who to give it to, I kind of prefer to let others be responsible for their own choices, and me be responsible for mine.

When I have it all figured out, I'll write a book.

[TeeSharice]

Going to repeat what I said earlier

that the tithing method of saving could be good even for those of dont believe the same as I do. So, for example, in the bible it is taught that Christians should tithe the 1st 10% of their earning, then save the next 10% and live off the remaining 80&. If a non-tither would save 10% of his earnings no matter how tight the budget, I doubt it would take long to learn how to live without it and the sacrafice would no longer be difficult.

Edited by TeeSharice, 06 February 2005 - 09:34 AM.

[JHowell1976]

Since when did God start billing for services rendered?  Everybody talks about how much is supposed to be offered to the chuch.  How this was in the bible, etc.  Does anybody remember the part about God helping those who help themselves?  Don't get me wrong, I think budgeting income is great.  I think charitable donations are very noble.  And I'm not going to question anyone's belief in God.  But most churches do contain a wide mix of people from numerous economic backgrounds.  For me 1000$ is a drop in the bucket as I am not married and have no kids.  For a lot of other people 1000$ is a lot of money, and 2000$ is staggering.  I guess I have to question the intentions of a pastor who would take from those who have little more than their faith and their family to begin with.  Who will own the church if you don't mind me asking?  Do all those who give money become part of a legal partnership that actually owns the church and the church property?  Or is this supposed to be a charitable donation given with no questions asked?  I'm not questioning the faith of anyone.  Nor am I passing judgement on how you choose to spend your money.  But I have no problems questioning anyone who asks me for a fixed amount of money.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not going to make this a religious debate simply because there are no winners in a conversation as such. Everyone has their own beliefs and lackthereof. For those of us who believe in the bible and its word and who further try & live a certain way, there are commandments and laws about tithing.

The point of this thread was for me to say how I was taught that my blessings financially and otherwise would be plentiful if I tithed accordingly. I used to have problems tithing, financially and conceptually, but now I have neither. Furthermore, that the tithing method of saving could be good even for those of dont believe the same as I do. So, for example, in the bible it is taught that Christians should tithe the 1st 10% of their earning, then save the next 10% and live off the remaining 80&. If a non-tither would save 10% of his earnings no matter how tight the budget, I doubt it would take long to learn how to live without it and the sacrafice would no longer be difficult.


FWIW, here are some examples of what the Bible says about tithing and the 10%:

PROVERBS 3:9: "Honor the LORD with your possessions, And with the firstfruits of all your increase."

The word "tithe" is an Old English word meaning "tenth." LEVITICUS 27:30 And all the tithe of the land, [whether] of the seed of the land, [or] of the fruit of the tree, [is] the LORD'S: [it is] holy unto the LORD.

27:31 And if a man will at all redeem [ought] of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth [part] thereof.

27:32 And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, [even] of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD.



Everyone who honors God by obeying His instructions does so on a voluntary basis. God never forces anyone to act against his or her will. At the same time, however, He expects us to tithe and equates failure to tithe with robbing Him (Malachi 3:8). Nor does God allow us to arbitrarily decide the minimum amount humans should give Him. Through His tithing system He reveals the minimum amount we should return to Him from all He gives us. Since God is our Creator and because everything belongs to Him (Psalm 24:1; Haggai 2:8), He has the right to establish this system of financial support for His spiritual purposes.

Tithing is, first and foremost, an act of worshipful recognition of God as the source of our existence and all blessings and providence. Jacob, in following the example of his grandfather Abraham, recognized this. When God reconfirmed to him the promises He had made to Abraham, Jacob promised God that "of all that You give me I will surely give a tenth to You" (Genesis 28:20-22)

We see tithing, then, as the opposite of a selfish approach to life. God stands prepared to support this generous approach by, in turn, blessing us in a variety of ways. He invites all to take Him up on His promise: "'Bring all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be food in My house, and try Me now in this,' says the Lord of hosts, 'if I will not open for you the windows of heaven and pour out for you such blessing that there will not be room enough to receive it'" (Malachi 3:10)



<pasted info from a few different google searches>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thank you for quoting me and answering questions I never asked. I am aware of how tithing works. I have been a member of the Episcopal Church all of my life. The the concept of giving ten percent is not unique to any one denomination of Christianity. You're going to have to trust me on this one, I was taught all about this during confirmation. Nothing in my previous post suggested I saw anything wrong with the tithe. I know how it works. When I go to church, We give our money. Some of that money pays the priest. Some of it covers the maintenance and utilities on the building. Some gets sent on to the Archdioses in Washington DC, and England (because other parrishes may need a little extra.) And then some goes to charity. Regardless of what is given they somehow make it all work.

What I said in my previous post was that 1000-2000$ is a lot of money for some people. After their rent, that may be the biggest expense they have for the year. And the impression I got was that was expected on top of the tithe. That's a lot of money exchanging hands. And while the money is given as an offering to God, it is being spent by a man who is not infallible. This money is being spent on a profitable business venture. And those who are spending are investors. What I asked was if the investors are going to be in a legal business partnership, or if the pastor was simply selling salvation at 1000$ per person.

I don't question the existence of God. I do question my fellow man. I don't attend church as often as I should. That basically rules out tithing. I guess I'm one of those people who you have judged, to be living a selfish lifestyle. When you passed judgement before God, upon me you said "We see tithing, then, as the opposite of a selfish approach to life." But not to worry, because I forgive you.

I was wondering, and I know this is way off topic now. A lot of people take quotes from Leviticus to justify their beliefs and actions. Do you practice a kosher lifestyle? Do you observe the sabbath? These are outlined in the book of Leviticus also. Or do you just pick and choose the parts that are most convenient for you? And this time, give me your answers and not a bunch of quotes.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am just going to give my thoughts, as there will never be a "right" answer to your questions.

First, this is just a forum, obviously know one would know you went to church and know all about tithing, so Tee was just explaining it, I dont feel she was "not answering" your questions.
Now as far as your questions..Is there an answer? Some people dont believe in God because it cant be "proved" 100%...They can't imagine believing in something based on "Faith"
You give 10% (if you are able) because you have Faith that God has provided you with what you have and this is something that does go back to him..
Yes your paying for pastors, and buildings & charitys...You may also be paying for outreach programs, and oversea missions, and scholarships for the youth, this is something you should talk to your pastor about. Find out why your money matters and how it is coming back to God. These are questions that do matter and may help ease your mind

I just dont think it is something that can be answered here...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I never asked for answers that are right or wrong. I think every question I have asked so far could be answered with a simple "yes" or "no."
"Are you entering a legal partnership...?" yes or no?
"Are you buying salvation at 1000$ per person?" yes or no?
"Do you practice a Kosher lifestyle?" yes or no?
"Do you observe the Sabbath?" yes or no?
"Do you pick and choose the parts of Leviticus that are most convenient for you?" yes or no?

No body answered my questions, I just ask them and I am given some quotes, and an indepth explanation of tithing.

You said I should talk to my pastor about tithing and the principles behind it. No one seems to be catching on here. I am aware of tithing. I know what it means. I do not need further clarification of the subject. In addition, I am Episcopal. We are sometimes referred to as Anglican Catholics/members of the Church of England. It is an Apostolic church. We do not have Pastors. We have priests. These priests go to college, and from there they go to Seminary School where they spend several years learning theology. Once complete they are ordained as Priests.

Why is this so hard for some of you to understand? I'm not asking for answers to all of life's mysteries. I'm asking for some answers to some basic questions that couls be answered in less than a minute. I even put them all together in multiple choice format at the top of this post. It's not that hard.

[radi8]

Edit.
Deleted comments, biting tongue.

[cotterpin]

maybe the no politics rule should be modified to include no religious discussion also.

But back on topic, I think Tee's ORIGINAL post makes a good point. Saving 10% of your gross income wouldn't be that hard to become accustomed to

[radi8]

Religious discussion is fine until someone starts questioning or deriding someone else's beliefs.
Doing so serves no useful purpose and is a violation of our TOS' prohibition on personal attacks.

[cotterpin]

Thanks radi8... maybe i'm just up too late and I'm misreading the thread to be a bit more hostile than it is... or maybe I'm just hypersensitive


I don't understand why people just can't respect the choices others have made in their lives.

[TeeSharice]

Since when did God start billing for services rendered?  Everybody talks about how much is supposed to be offered to the chuch.  How this was in the bible, etc.  Does anybody remember the part about God helping those who help themselves?  Don't get me wrong, I think budgeting income is great.  I think charitable donations are very noble.  And I'm not going to question anyone's belief in God.  But most churches do contain a wide mix of people from numerous economic backgrounds.  For me 1000$ is a drop in the bucket as I am not married and have no kids.  For a lot of other people 1000$ is a lot of money, and 2000$ is staggering.  I guess I have to question the intentions of a pastor who would take from those who have little more than their faith and their family to begin with.  Who will own the church if you don't mind me asking?  Do all those who give money become part of a legal partnership that actually owns the church and the church property?  Or is this supposed to be a charitable donation given with no questions asked?  I'm not questioning the faith of anyone.  Nor am I passing judgement on how you choose to spend your money.  But I have no problems questioning anyone who asks me for a fixed amount of money.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not going to make this a religious debate simply because there are no winners in a conversation as such. Everyone has their own beliefs and lackthereof. For those of us who believe in the bible and its word and who further try & live a certain way, there are commandments and laws about tithing.

The point of this thread was for me to say how I was taught that my blessings financially and otherwise would be plentiful if I tithed accordingly. I used to have problems tithing, financially and conceptually, but now I have neither. Furthermore, that the tithing method of saving could be good even for those of dont believe the same as I do. So, for example, in the bible it is taught that Christians should tithe the 1st 10% of their earning, then save the next 10% and live off the remaining 80&. If a non-tither would save 10% of his earnings no matter how tight the budget, I doubt it would take long to learn how to live without it and the sacrafice would no longer be difficult.


FWIW, here are some examples of what the Bible says about tithing and the 10%:

PROVERBS 3:9: "Honor the LORD with your possessions, And with the firstfruits of all your increase."

The word "tithe" is an Old English word meaning "tenth." LEVITICUS 27:30 And all the tithe of the land, [whether] of the seed of the land, [or] of the fruit of the tree, [is] the LORD'S: [it is] holy unto the LORD.

27:31 And if a man will at all redeem [ought] of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth [part] thereof.

27:32 And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, [even] of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD.



Everyone who honors God by obeying His instructions does so on a voluntary basis. God never forces anyone to act against his or her will. At the same time, however, He expects us to tithe and equates failure to tithe with robbing Him (Malachi 3:8). Nor does God allow us to arbitrarily decide the minimum amount humans should give Him. Through His tithing system He reveals the minimum amount we should return to Him from all He gives us. Since God is our Creator and because everything belongs to Him (Psalm 24:1; Haggai 2:8), He has the right to establish this system of financial support for His spiritual purposes.

Tithing is, first and foremost, an act of worshipful recognition of God as the source of our existence and all blessings and providence. Jacob, in following the example of his grandfather Abraham, recognized this. When God reconfirmed to him the promises He had made to Abraham, Jacob promised God that "of all that You give me I will surely give a tenth to You" (Genesis 28:20-22)

We see tithing, then, as the opposite of a selfish approach to life. God stands prepared to support this generous approach by, in turn, blessing us in a variety of ways. He invites all to take Him up on His promise: "'Bring all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be food in My house, and try Me now in this,' says the Lord of hosts, 'if I will not open for you the windows of heaven and pour out for you such blessing that there will not be room enough to receive it'" (Malachi 3:10)



<pasted info from a few different google searches>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thank you for quoting me and answering questions I never asked. I am aware of how tithing works. I have been a member of the Episcopal Church all of my life. The the concept of giving ten percent is not unique to any one denomination of Christianity. You're going to have to trust me on this one, I was taught all about this during confirmation. Nothing in my previous post suggested I saw anything wrong with the tithe. I know how it works. When I go to church, We give our money. Some of that money pays the priest. Some of it covers the maintenance and utilities on the building. Some gets sent on to the Archdioses in Washington DC, and England (because other parrishes may need a little extra.) And then some goes to charity. Regardless of what is given they somehow make it all work.

What I said in my previous post was that 1000-2000$ is a lot of money for some people. After their rent, that may be the biggest expense they have for the year. And the impression I got was that was expected on top of the tithe. That's a lot of money exchanging hands. And while the money is given as an offering to God, it is being spent by a man who is not infallible. This money is being spent on a profitable business venture. And those who are spending are investors. What I asked was if the investors are going to be in a legal business partnership, or if the pastor was simply selling salvation at 1000$ per person.

I don't question the existence of God. I do question my fellow man. I don't attend church as often as I should. That basically rules out tithing. I guess I'm one of those people who you have judged, to be living a selfish lifestyle. When you passed judgement before God, upon me you said "We see tithing, then, as the opposite of a selfish approach to life." But not to worry, because I forgive you.

I was wondering, and I know this is way off topic now. A lot of people take quotes from Leviticus to justify their beliefs and actions. Do you practice a kosher lifestyle? Do you observe the sabbath? These are outlined in the book of Leviticus also. Or do you just pick and choose the parts that are most convenient for you? And this time, give me your answers and not a bunch of quotes.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am just going to give my thoughts, as there will never be a "right" answer to your questions.

First, this is just a forum, obviously know one would know you went to church and know all about tithing, so Tee was just explaining it, I dont feel she was "not answering" your questions.
Now as far as your questions..Is there an answer? Some people dont believe in God because it cant be "proved" 100%...They can't imagine believing in something based on "Faith"
You give 10% (if you are able) because you have Faith that God has provided you with what you have and this is something that does go back to him..
Yes your paying for pastors, and buildings & charitys...You may also be paying for outreach programs, and oversea missions, and scholarships for the youth, this is something you should talk to your pastor about. Find out why your money matters and how it is coming back to God. These are questions that do matter and may help ease your mind

I just dont think it is something that can be answered here...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I never asked for answers that are right or wrong. I think every question I have asked so far could be answered with a simple "yes" or "no."
"Are you entering a legal partnership...?" yes or no?
"Are you buying salvation at 1000$ per person?" yes or no?
"Do you practice a Kosher lifestyle?" yes or no?
"Do you observe the Sabbath?" yes or no?
"Do you pick and choose the parts of Leviticus that are most convenient for you?" yes or no?

No body answered my questions, I just ask them and I am given some quotes, and an indepth explanation of tithing.

You said I should talk to my pastor about tithing and the principles behind it. No one seems to be catching on here. I am aware of tithing. I know what it means. I do not need further clarification of the subject. In addition, I am Episcopal. We are sometimes referred to as Anglican Catholics/members of the Church of England. It is an Apostolic church. We do not have Pastors. We have priests. These priests go to college, and from there they go to Seminary School where they spend several years learning theology. Once complete they are ordained as Priests.

Why is this so hard for some of you to understand? I'm not asking for answers to all of life's mysteries. I'm asking for some answers to some basic questions that couls be answered in less than a minute. I even put them all together in multiple choice format at the top of this post. It's not that hard.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

no one, more specifically, *I* am not answering your questions because I have divulged enough about my beliefs as it pertains to the subject at hand. This is NOT a religious discussion, per se', it is a money management forum AND I have made my point several times, this being the last. I was offering a suggestion to those believers AND non-believers a viable way to save and thereby manage money which has very little, if anything to do with religion, faith, etc.
The only reason religion was mentioned because of the ideaology from which the saving method( tithing) was derived.


Radi8: Pls save me....stop biting your tongue. Im trying to play nice aren't I?

[snowpuppy]

Albernier, you might ask your employer if you can get "Advanced Earned Income Credit" if you qualify for EIC at the end of the year and get a substantial refund.

Your employer can give you a portion of your EIC (about 40%) in each pay through out the year. You will get less EIC at tax time, but it might help you to make ends meet during the year.

[idtheftvictim]

I never asked for answers that are right or wrong.  I think every question I have asked so far could be answered with a simple "yes" or "no." 
1. "Are you entering a legal partnership...?"  yes or no?
2. "Are you buying salvation at 1000$ per person?"  yes or no?
3. "Do you practice a Kosher lifestyle?"  yes or no?
4. "Do you observe the Sabbath?"  yes or no?
5. "Do you pick and choose the parts of Leviticus that are most convenient for you?"  yes or no?

1. NO...why would you want to own Gods Church?
2. You can NOT purchase salvation
3. No, why would you ask?
4. I do observe the 7th day of the week as a Holy Day, do you?
5. No, Do you pick and choose parts of the ENTIRE Bible that are right for you?

I hope that is what you were looking for. I have to wonder though....why did you ask those questions to us on the forum, rather then your Spirtual Leader?

God Bless,
ID

[albernier]

I never asked for answers that are right or wrong.  I think every question I have asked so far could be answered with a simple "yes" or "no." 
1. "Are you entering a legal partnership...?"  yes or no?
2. "Are you buying salvation at 1000$ per person?"  yes or no?
3. "Do you practice a Kosher lifestyle?"  yes or no?
4. "Do you observe the Sabbath?"  yes or no?
5. "Do you pick and choose the parts of Leviticus that are most convenient for you?"  yes or no?

1. NO...why would you want to own Gods Church?
2. You can NOT purchase salvation
3. No, why would you ask?
4. I do observe the 7th day of the week as a Holy Day, do you?
5. No, Do you pick and choose parts of the ENTIRE Bible that are right for you?

I hope that is what you were looking for. I have to wonder though....why did you ask those questions to us on the forum, rather then your Spirtual Leader?

God Bless,
ID

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think some of the questions were directed towards me and some towards Tee. I can only answer the ones that were directed towards me.

1. Nope no legal partnership
2. Salvation is free, thank God, because Im broke

Basically, I guess we were asked for the money because where else is it supposed to come from? Btw, I did give the $1000 with a willing heart for the advancement of God's Kingdom.

The Word will go forth whether we can purchase the building or not. We started out in a recreation room, then a school cafeteria, so the building is just that... a building. I guess this post has gotten so far from what it was supposed to be its kind of funny. But it doesnt surprise me because thats what old slew foot does, best.. its his job....

[ms_lisa]

I never asked for answers that are right or wrong.  I think every question I have asked so far could be answered with a simple "yes" or "no." 
"Are you entering a legal partnership...?"  yes or no?
"Are you buying salvation at 1000$ per person?"  yes or no?
"Do you practice a Kosher lifestyle?"  yes or no?
"Do you observe the Sabbath?"  yes or no?
"Do you pick and choose the parts of Leviticus that are most convenient for you?"  yes or no?

No body answered my questions, I just ask them and I am given some quotes, and an indepth explanation of tithing. 

You said I should talk to my pastor about tithing and the principles behind it.  No one seems to be catching on here.  I am aware of tithing.  I know what it means.  I do not need further clarification of the subject.  In addition, I am Episcopal.  We are sometimes referred to as Anglican Catholics/members of the Church of England.  It is an Apostolic church.  We do not have Pastors.  We have priests.  These priests go to college, and from there they go to Seminary School where they spend several years learning theology.  Once complete they are ordained as Priests.

Why is this so hard for some of you to understand?  I'm not asking for answers to all of life's mysteries.  I'm asking for some answers to some basic questions that couls be answered in less than a minute.  I even put them all together in multiple choice format at the top of this post.  It's not that hard.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

All I am going to say is that I have a good feeling any answer to those questions are going to be wrong to you. Religious views do not come in a multiple choice format.

While I could answer those questions, they would be my personal beliefs.
What I believe is not in debate. I do not debate religion.

It does sound like you have a lot of questions, but those need to be answered by you.

I dont have anything else to say about it and Im not going to post anymore about it. Its just not worth the debate..

[JHowell1976]

I never asked for answers that are right or wrong.  I think every question I have asked so far could be answered with a simple "yes" or "no." 
1. "Are you entering a legal partnership...?"  yes or no?
2. "Are you buying salvation at 1000$ per person?"  yes or no?
3. "Do you practice a Kosher lifestyle?"  yes or no?
4. "Do you observe the Sabbath?"  yes or no?
5. "Do you pick and choose the parts of Leviticus that are most convenient for you?"  yes or no?

1. NO...why would you want to own Gods Church?
2. You can NOT purchase salvation
3. No, why would you ask?
4. I do observe the 7th day of the week as a Holy Day, do you?
5. No, Do you pick and choose parts of the ENTIRE Bible that are right for you?

I hope that is what you were looking for. I have to wonder though....why did you ask those questions to us on the forum, rather then your Spirtual Leader?

God Bless,
ID

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

1. It may be God's Church, but I'm certain someone else's name is on the deed at the courthouse. That's what I wanted to know.
2. OK, we agree here.
3. I ask because if you read the book of Leviticus where most of your quotes stem from, it outlines the rules for a kosher lifestyle (i.e. no pork, etc.)
4. The seventh day of the week is Saturday. The Sabbath begins on Friday evening and runs until Saturday evening.
5. No, I just try to be a good person, and do the right thing. I think it's best to end the debate now as we will all practice our own form of faith. We all see life from different perspectives and yours are no better than mine and mine are no better than yours.

Albernier you did answer the questions I directed at you. There were no right answers, but there were no wrong answers either.

1. Since this is about money management, my intent was to find out if you knew exactly how your money was being spent. You're honest about it and stand behind your decision. While I may not agree, it is your money, you seem to know what you're doing, and if that's what's best for you, who would know better than you? (this is rhetorical, I'm not asking for an answer.)
2. I think that's something we all agree on.

[idtheftvictim]

3. I ask because if you read the book of Leviticus where most of your quotes stem from, it outlines the rules for a kosher lifestyle (i.e. no pork, etc.)

TO be honest(and I believe I have stated this in this thread already), us(Believers of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit) as Christians are not bound to the Old Testamaent(which is where Leviticus is), we have a New Law, and hence I have already stated, we do not NEED to provide the first 1/10 of our money, however, under the new law we are to "tithe" or "give graciously" what we feel the Lord has advised us to...there is no more of the 10% rule...

Hope that helps...

[breeze]

alagurl,

When you answered this, you used the report button instead of the reply button - try again. bottom right, a black button that says "add reply."

[pax]

PROVERBS 3:9: "Honor the LORD with your possessions, And with the firstfruits of all your increase."
True that!
With almost no credit but a Macy's card and a mid fico score of 530, I use cash and save to pay off 4 CO's.
The Lord is good.