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Can we have an 'honest' discussion about money and middle class income?


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68 replies to this topic

#1 ukikkgr

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 07:40 PM

I'm often amazed when I read about other couples in the US who have amassed an enormous amount of savings and wealth in their 30's. My question is 'how do they do it?". My wife and I are both 42. We met each other at the age of 30 and were married at 37. We are both working professionals (me sales manager/her project manager) and we make a decent income. Our income has been progressive and I don't believe we over spend, however we aren't great savers either. When we met our combined gross income was probably $80K a year. Last year our gross income was $137K. We both had periods of time when we were laid off in our careers and they set us back financially. Still we've been blessed and lucky to be steadily working in our current jobs... her's 7 years, mine almost 9 years. In total we have only $107K in retirement income set aside. Another $23K in savings. We have $14K in auto loan, $4800 in CC debt and $310K in mortgage. Student loans PIF. I think we're doing OK... but I worry we could be doing better. Then I read an article like this: $600,000 in debt, planning to be a stay-at-home mom WTF???? 3 properties... income of $184K and $78K in cash... $234K in retirement??? Another $105K in stocks??? $800K in real estate... and they are 33 yrs old. Let's assume that both have been working professionally since 27... 6 years. I'm just trying piece this all together.

We both file bankrupcies in the 1990's. We both live in NY. When we met we started rebuilding our financial futures together at age 30. Back in 2005 my wife an I got engaged. We paid for our own wedding ($20K) of which we were able to return $11K into savings. The following year my father in law passed away and my wife and I committed ourselves to care for my disabled mother in law (bed bound with MS). We purchased a house in 2007 for $350K in NY. We were able to put 5% down which after closing left us with $5000 in savings. We pay $10K a year in annual taxes and insurance.

Our net monthly is $7500 per month. Heating oil averages $5000 per year. Utilities, maintenance other expenses put us over $42K per year in house hold expenses+ mortgage ($3000 per month). We don't collect rent from my mother in law...she has SS income however it isn't enough to cover all her medical and living expenses. Between federal and state taxes last year we payed out another $29K. I'm not complaining. Our head is above water. My wife and I probably overspend on groceries... we like to dine out ($200 a month easily). We have gym memberships. two car payments and insurance ($800).

We can afford it all and probably stand to cut back a lot. I'm worried at 42 we'll be working until 70 before retirement. I still can't wrap my head around couples above who are a decade younger and seemingly 9,000 paces ahead. Or the 'caller' on a money management program (Suze Orman or Dave Ramsey) who is 46 has $6000 per month in income, $180K mortgage and have $1.2mil in retirement, $220K in savings and wants to know if they can afford dance lessons? What is the secret??? Windfall income? A dead aunt? Sleeping rent free in a park for several years? No one I know of is in that personal financial situation unless they have amassed massive debt for the cause and aren't being truthful. Or perhaps it's just that I live in the Northeast... an expensive area of the country, where the dollar doesn't stretch as far. I'm not jealous... I want to know the 'secret'.

Edited by ukikkgr, 28 April 2012 - 07:43 PM.




#2 hegemony

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 03:28 PM

We gave two incomes and live on one; we save 100 percent of the lower of the two incomes

#3 HoldenMcGroin

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 04:35 PM

I get really anxious lately about retirement...I'm not even 30 yet and I'm having trouble seeing how I'm ever going to save enough. It's overwhelming. I can see why some people just avoid the subject completely and don't save at all. Because it seems like if you're a normal person what you can do is never gonna be enough.

#4 ukikkgr

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 06:33 PM

We gave two incomes and live on one; we save 100 percent of the lower of the two incomes



Something I would aspire to do... but would be completely impossible in our current situation.

My take home-$4025
My wife's -$3516

Mortgage PITI- $2870
Auto-$425 + 200 per month for insurance.
Heat & electric- $500-600
Groceries-$800

That already exceeds my salary... but I get where you are going. We tend to put away $1000-1500 per month but we've had some household maintenence... New furnace $6000, Backup generator $1500... driveway reseal $1200. In total we've spent $4000 a year on such expenses.

#5 snowpuppy

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 12:00 AM

One theme among my friends who seemingly have more than I do is how much their parents helped them along their way. I wouldn't want their debt levels.

Lose a job? Move in with parents. Need daycare when little ones come along? Call your mother/MIL to sit for free. Need a downpayment for your house? Call the parents. Need a co signor for student loans? Call the parents. Need someone to pay for your private college? Call the parents. Need a vacation? Ask if the parents time share or condo is available.

While I'm envious of some of the income, there's no way I would want those mortgage or vehicle payments. Similarly, I would not want to own rental properties currently. While there is talk of how much of a 'rental boom' that's coming, in my area, even Section 8 rentals are standing vacant. People are doubling up and giving up even their subsidized units.

Perhaps moving in with the parents.

#6 njroadie

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 06:24 PM

I think that you need to look more closely at your expenses. The numbers you list are not your entire spending. Keep track of everything you spend. I do this electronically. I put everything on a credit card, and I can download the individual transactions into Quicken. I categorize the transactions into appropriate categories. Quicken has great reports, which are customizable. After some time you will have a great idea of your real spending by looking at the reports. You can then see if there are areas to cut. I'll bet you're surprised just how much you are spending.

#7 jolla

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 08:52 AM

Mint.com is also good for tracking spending (it's free).

#8 jv01

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 10:55 AM

What is the secret??? Windfall income? A dead aunt? Sleeping rent free in a park for several years? No one I know of is in that personal financial situation unless they have amassed massive debt for the cause and aren't being truthful.


The "secret" is that saving, frugality and prudent money management are attitudes you cultivate your entire life. Start saving a few bucks a month at age 22 and it becomes easier to save a few thousand a month at age 42. Eventually "savings" turn into "investments" and start throwing off cash (dividends, rental income) and have capital appreciation. Yeah, the stock market (and more recently, real estate) are volatile, but along the way it's hard not to gain some working knowledge of when assets are cheap and when they're overvalued. It's not a destination, it's a journey.

Starting at 42, you still have 20+ years until traditional retirement age, and you have the benefit of starting from a high base amount.

#9 hegemony

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 12:42 PM


We gave two incomes and live on one; we save 100 percent of the lower of the two incomes



Something I would aspire to do... but would be completely impossible in our current situation.

My take home-$4025
My wife's -$3516

Mortgage PITI- $2870
Auto-$425 + 200 per month for insurance.
Heat & electric- $500-600
Groceries-$800

That already exceeds my salary... but I get where you are going. We tend to put away $1000-1500 per month but we've had some household maintenence... New furnace $6000, Backup generator $1500... driveway reseal $1200. In total we've spent $4000 a year on such expenses.


We've tried to imagine what would happen if one of us got ill or laid-off. If my spouse lost her job we could live on my income just fine; not as nicely, but we'd be okay. Right now we essentially save my income and live on her (higher) income.

We we bought our current home the mortgage guy kept asking if we want to borrow more to get into a bigger/nicer place since "we could afford it." In looking at your rough budget it seems your expenses are very high and you need both incomes. I would work toward reducing expenses. Have you adjusted your W-4s to make sure you do not get a tax refund?

#10 hegemony

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 12:45 PM

One theme among my friends who seemingly have more than I do is how much their parents helped them along their way. I wouldn't want their debt levels.

Lose a job? Move in with parents. Need daycare when little ones come along? Call your mother/MIL to sit for free. Need a downpayment for your house? Call the parents. Need a co signor for student loans? Call the parents. Need someone to pay for your private college? Call the parents. Need a vacation? Ask if the parents time share or condo is available.

While I'm envious of some of the income, there's no way I would want those mortgage or vehicle payments. Similarly, I would not want to own rental properties currently. While there is talk of how much of a 'rental boom' that's coming, in my area, even Section 8 rentals are standing vacant. People are doubling up and giving up even their subsidized units.

Perhaps moving in with the parents.


no parental assistance here other than some help with college tuition. I have friends who kids always come to them for a bail out (sometimes literally to get bailed out :lol: ) and I feel sorry for the parents who seem unable to let their adult children grow up.

#11 hegemony

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 12:51 PM

I get really anxious lately about retirement...I'm not even 30 yet and I'm having trouble seeing how I'm ever going to save enough. It's overwhelming. I can see why some people just avoid the subject completely and don't save at all. Because it seems like if you're a normal person what you can do is never gonna be enough.


you are starting earlier than I did! until I was 30, I did not handle my finances well at all. My main problem was simply ignoring the fact I was 1) spending more than I made and 2) underemployed.

I did an international job search to find a better paying job and moved 2,000 miles for it. My income more than doubled in 8 years or so. My friends who still work at my old employer are making perhaps 25% more than then did around the time I left. Between refusing to put up with being underemployed and getting married to a financial genius, I was able to learn to handle my finances and grow up, so to speak.

I only wished I had started a ROTH IRA in my 20s. I have not been able to contribute to a ROTH IRA for over a decade! Even if I had only put a few hundred $$ in it when I was 26 or 27 I would really benefit from that compounding now and later.

#12 KYBOSH

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 03:22 AM

One thing i have always told ppl is not to dwell too hard on what other people have. Namely because you dont know what they had to do to get it.

Most people will not tell you how they got their riches but they have no problem flashing it or bragging about it.

Most of the 30 somethings with six figures in the bank would have gotten a very large portion of that $$$ through inheritances (stock, real estate, etc) and life insurance policies. From there they either do a descent job maintaining it or make it grow through sound investment strategies.

Very few people can amass wealth at an early age by working hard and saving alone. It just doesnt work like that anymore.

I have actually given a lot of thought to this very topic.
And i like the way the Jewish community does it. Im no expert but from what i can tell their community emphasizes education and frugality. Then (and this is just as important) they are given a large some of $$$$ for their barmizfa (sp?).

They say there are 2 things you need to be sucessful: opportunity and preparedness.

The education and money prepares someone to seize the opportunity when it presents itself.

#13 twizzle

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 07:19 AM

I only wished I had started a ROTH IRA in my 20s. I have not been able to contribute to a ROTH IRA for over a decade! Even if I had only put a few hundred $ in it when I was 26 or 27 I would really benefit from that compounding now and later.


This.

This. This. This.

It's too late to go back in time for my husband and I, but our kids...there's no way I'm letting them make the same mistake, only I made them start in their teens. First job, a % of it goes into your retirement. No negotiation. (We also make them put a % into college savings, a % in savings, and the rest is fun money up to their discretion.) They think I'm nuts, but I told them they will thank us one day. Preferably by supporting us in our old age because we made dumb mistakes...(I keed.)

ETA- We created monsters, btw, so I'm not suggesting this. Just relating. My soon-to-be 14 yr old started investing his savings w ING share accts and CDs when he was 12. We'd taken a trip to NYC and apparently the Trump Towers made quite an impression on him. *sigh* He plans to become a mogul at 18 and take over the world. So, you know, there is some downside to making them be responsible.

I know this sounds crazy, but I worry, because our struggles have made my hubby and I very appreciative and respectful of $. Sometimes I wonder if we're robbing them a bit by not letting them figure this out on their own, and then sometimes I think it's our responsibility to teach them and we'd be negligent if we didn't. Just the joys of parenting...

Edited by twizzle, 08 May 2012 - 07:34 AM.


#14 ukikkgr

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 01:12 PM



We gave two incomes and live on one; we save 100 percent of the lower of the two incomes



Something I would aspire to do... but would be completely impossible in our current situation.

My take home-$4025
My wife's -$3516

Mortgage PITI- $2870
Auto-$425 + 200 per month for insurance.
Heat & electric- $500-600
Groceries-$800

That already exceeds my salary... but I get where you are going. We tend to put away $1000-1500 per month but we've had some household maintenence... New furnace $6000, Backup generator $1500... driveway reseal $1200. In total we've spent $4000 a year on such expenses.


We've tried to imagine what would happen if one of us got ill or laid-off. If my spouse lost her job we could live on my income just fine; not as nicely, but we'd be okay. Right now we essentially save my income and live on her (higher) income.

We we bought our current home the mortgage guy kept asking if we want to borrow more to get into a bigger/nicer place since "we could afford it." In looking at your rough budget it seems your expenses are very high and you need both incomes. I would work toward reducing expenses. Have you adjusted your W-4s to make sure you do not get a tax refund?



True... our expenses are high. Compared to the rest of the country, my county's cost of living is 39.40% Higher than the U.S. average. And that makes it tough to save alot of our income. It's hard to find ways to cut expenses. Last year I invested $3400 in repiping my furnace system (taking two boilers down to one). Between that and it being a mild winter we saved 250 gallons of oil. Then oil spiked to $4.55 per gallon. Electric is up 13% over 2010, and school taxes are up 11%.

Still I'm not making excuses... we certainly do waste alot. I'm sure we could eat out less, coupon more... We just hit our 5th wedding anniversary and 4th year living in this house and I was hoping we'd have more saved. Then I hear young couples in their 20-s and 30's with six figures in savings and I think back to when I was their age living in this area.... paying 1/3 my net income to rent, another 1/4 to auto payment and insurance and I wonder how far 10 years would have gotten me if I started saving much earlier.

#15 foeplay

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 11:07 AM

I know how you feel OP. My problem is that I am still single so I like to party like a college student every weekend. Chasing tail is super expensive with a very low success rate (at least for me). If I sit at home staring at the wall I get stir crazy and depressed. I now try and play video games all weekend to try and save more, but then I end up feeling like a slob.

That being said, I'm doing a whole lot better now than I was 5 years ago, but when I read posts on financial forums with people's net worths younger than me, I feel like turning on Justin Timberlake and crying an entire lake.

I now avoid bogleheads forum as much as I can even though they have great advice because I end up looking at my Quicken and vomiting.

I should go and read beer pong forums instead so I can at least feel like I'm thriving. :D

#16 hegemony

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 11:19 AM

I know how you feel OP. My problem is that I am still single so I like to party like a college student every weekend. Chasing tail is super expensive with a very low success rate (at least for me). If I sit at home staring at the wall I get stir crazy and depressed. I now try and play video games all weekend to try and save more, but then I end up feeling like a slob.

That being said, I'm doing a whole lot better now than I was 5 years ago, but when I read posts on financial forums with people's net worths younger than me, I feel like turning on Justin Timberlake and crying an entire lake.

I now avoid bogleheads forum as much as I can even though they have great advice because I end up looking at my Quicken and vomiting.

I should go and read beer pong forums instead so I can at least feel like I'm thriving. :D


IMHO there is nothing wrong with enjoying your youth. As long as you are paying the bills and starting/progressing on your savings and investments there is no reason to wait until you are old and rich to have fun. Remember that youth is wasted on the young :lol:

#17 road2freedom

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 06:31 PM

I've battled with this a lot, more so pre-BK and less now that I've been leveled out a bit. Part of me says, I work hard, earn decent money, I should enjoy it. You can't take your money with you when you die. The other part of me realizes there are unquantifiable benefits to living with minimal debt, decent cash reserves, and the ability to enjoy life. Personally, I hope to find some middle ground once my wife's snowball plan is complete. I'll never be the benefactor of a large inheritance or anything so I still buy the occasional lotto ticket every now an then. You gotta be in it to win it.

#18 Jeremy09

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 06:28 PM

Ahhh...this dilemma. I shouldn't have clicked this thread.

I'm 23, fiance is 26 (my cougar). Between the two of us, we gross about $140k per year give or take. On the side, I usually do pretty well for myself, but isn't a side business. It's buying things and reselling at higher value: coins, art, electronics, etc. With that said, it seems as though we're still in limbo. Don't get me wrong, we spend a nice chunk of change but everyone tells us to enjoy it now while it lasts because once we have a kid ( :swoon: ) it all goes towards childcare. We don't take that "advice" as "go out and overspend like a mofo right now!" However, we certainly enjoy ourselves. My problem is that my hobbies are all expensive. I love watches, vehicles, big and new TV's, computers, gadgets, etc. Could I live without them...most certainly, no questions asked. However, for some reason, we (read: I) choose not to.

Don't get me wrong, we both contribute toward our 401(k)'s and I used to contribute toward my company stock program (11% match plus dividends in a very stable utility stock). However, it seems that lately we're taking a step back. We still have most of our valuables and enjoy a movie on demand whenever we feel like it, but we can't get out of that vicious cycle. It seems like every month, something new comes up.

On top of all of that, we're both underpaid. She should be making (according to industry average) a solid $20k+ over what she is making. I am doing work that guys with a bit more experience get paid $150k+. I guess we just have to take it in stride, pay our bills on time and ask ourselves before each and every purchase if we *need* to buy an item or pay for a service.

I guess I was just contributing toward the discussion and hopefully showing everyone else that you're not alone.

#19 ishmael109

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 12:17 PM

My spouse and I did not get serious about putting $ away, and cutting spending until early 30's. There really is no secret to it, other than we cut spending on anything not necessary. Instead of eating out 3x per week, we cook more at home, and choose 2 days per month where we splurge. I also gave up on some expensive hobbies (buying new guitars, timepieces, vacations, etc) When we started this journey, I never thought I could stick with it, but I learned to want what I actually have, vs always wanting something newer, better, etc. I bought a 1 bedroom condo in 2000 for about 82K. I have about 2 months to go until the mortgage is paid off. So many people feel we should move to something bigger/better more spacious, etc but we are happy with our low taxes,low common charges, and soon to be no mortgage payment. Instead of paying a big mortgage, we are living modestly, and putting the $ into retirement, and savings. We have no consumer debt outside of the mortgage. Believe me, it was not always this way. We had to dig out from a big hole to get here. If I can do it, andybody can :)

#20 Jeremy09

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 09:56 PM

My spouse and I did not get serious about putting $ away, and cutting spending until early 30's. There really is no secret to it, other than we cut spending on anything not necessary. Instead of eating out 3x per week, we cook more at home, and choose 2 days per month where we splurge. I also gave up on some expensive hobbies (buying new guitars, timepieces, vacations, etc) When we started this journey, I never thought I could stick with it, but I learned to want what I actually have, vs always wanting something newer, better, etc. I bought a 1 bedroom condo in 2000 for about 82K. I have about 2 months to go until the mortgage is paid off. So many people feel we should move to something bigger/better more spacious, etc but we are happy with our low taxes,low common charges, and soon to be no mortgage payment. Instead of paying a big mortgage, we are living modestly, and putting the $ into retirement, and savings. We have no consumer debt outside of the mortgage. Believe me, it was not always this way. We had to dig out from a big hole to get here. If I can do it, andybody can :)

Very motivating! Thanks, so much, for sharing.

#21 Legaldiva

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 11:14 AM

OP you are not alone. I watch Suze Orman every week and the people that call into her "Can I Afford it?" segment always leave me and my husband perplexed..especially when the callers are 28 year guys with $85K salaries, $350K retirement accts, $55K in savings, etc...my husband saved his entire life and it's only recently that his salary is somewhat decent for where we live (expensive Long Island, NY) but trust me, we are in our mid 30s and early 40s and have no idea how some couples have so much amassed in savings/retirement. Even my in laws who saved their entire lives, scrimped and saved, only have around $600K combined in their retirement accounts (and they are both retired). I just shake my head in disbelief because many people will NOT have $1 million or more in retirement- its unrealistic and hard.
I think what hurts us is living here in NY. Property taxes in our area range from $6-20K with home prices anywhere from $350-800K. It's just hard to survive here and flourish. My husband and I are doing well (185K combined) but if we decided to have kids, I can see any financial savings for us just vanish. Raising kids cost way too much money here in NY suburbia.

#22 TCisME

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 05:43 PM

OP

The secret is NEVER get into debt.

The stuff you bought by going into debt is why you are not sitting on a gold mine. As far as the twenty and thirty year olds that are rich, they were born into wealth do not play yourself. You state that you are 42, well get rid of all your ideas about accumulating more stuff and start downsizing all slavery, I mean debt.

#23 SparkyinCA

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 07:55 PM

Great discussion although I don't fall into this category of having amassed a huge estate for my age (early 50's). But, my sister and BIL were able to do it and it started at an early age. They met in high school, both overachievers with the same value of money and married after they were done with 4 years of college. They put themselves through school (her a scientist with an MBA) and him, an engineer with a Master's from a very well known school. He was in the military for 10 years and went to work for a large engineering firm.

Their key to success was not having any debt besides their mortgage. None. Bought used cars (they still do), bought a home in each state they lived in and kept them and only have a small mortgage on their current home they live in with 7 figures in equity even after the crash. They have 5 nice homes and rent 3 of them out. They have always lived on his income (1/3 of what she makes). They could have retired at 40, but like their careers and are just pushing mid 50's now. She started her own consulting corp and he has one also in addition to his full time position with the engineering firm.

I think what it boils down to in their wealth building was having discipline and setting their goals at an early age. They don't drink, smoke but do occasionally go on a gambling blow out and spent $40 or $50 playing nickel machines (just kills me!). I think what makes this even more interesting is on his side of the family there is a wealthy aunt and uncle that are leaving a $10 mil estate split among 5 of the relatives of which the BIL is a beneficiary of their trust.

Was any of this handed to them or inherited? Nope..Not a penny. My folks paid for their wedding, but that was the last money ever contributed.

It can be done. I've watched this the past 30 years unfold and have to say I'm not surprised they did it. They are just very determined people and scrutinize every decision regarding money. They do take overseas vacations every few years but use mileage points for their flights and try to get good deals on their hotels. But nothing over the top. They are not flashy folks and don't flaunt their wealth. They have passed this to their 2 kids (late 20 year old kids) and most discussions around the table are about mortgage interest rates or arguments about physics. They are happy.

Just kills me to try to compete with them! They were made for each other and have done what they set out to do creating their wealth and sticking to it. I have no doubt they will still be working in their 70's and have no plans to ever retire even though they could have many years ago. They both lose sleep they don't have an 850 FICO score, but I'm sure it's not to far below 850.

Edited by SparkyinCA, 15 July 2012 - 07:58 PM.


#24 hegemony

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 10:33 AM

OP

The secret is NEVER get into debt.

The stuff you bought by going into debt is why you are not sitting on a gold mine. As far as the twenty and thirty year olds that are rich, they were born into wealth do not play yourself. You state that you are 42, well get rid of all your ideas about accumulating more stuff and start downsizing all slavery, I mean debt.


the dave ramsey board is that way =========> :lol:


sorry but for average folks a mortgage and a auto loan are useful tools to better their lives. it sure as hell is not akin to SLAVERY!

#25 TCisME

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 04:29 PM

Read the definition of Debtor.




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