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Mom & Dad's Income Really Is The Best Predictor Of Junior's SAT Score


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63 replies to this topic

#26 LBCS

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 09:47 PM

From the article:

Parents who bring home over $200K can expect their kids to score an impressive 1721

Is 1721 out of a possible 2400 really impressive?



#27 blackberry74

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 09:59 PM

Not particularly, LBCS. :lol:

The real discussion needs to be why there are two different educational systems based on what zip code you happen to be born into. But I suppose that's not as much fun as drawing spurious conclusions.

#28 dawniedawn67

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 07:26 AM

Why has no one figured out the actual truth here?

The dumb rich kids score higher on the SATs because their parents pay poor smart kids to take it for them.

Honestly - I shake my head at all of you. :rolleyes:



:grin:

#29 orangecrush

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 11:04 AM

Just my observations from back in the day...

Most kids who came from well to do homes took the SAT multiple times to improves their score. Most kids from poorer homes took the test once.

#30 Nemeweh

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 02:04 PM

I'm thinking they didnt count the Indian kids...

#31 Tigz

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 02:08 PM

Why has no one figured out the actual truth here?

The dumb rich kids score higher on the SATs because their parents pay poor smart kids to take it for them.

Honestly - I shake my head at all of you. :rolleyes:



:grin:

Or the parents of the dumb rich kids just set them up a trust so the kid doesn't have to go to college.....

Paris Hilton ring a bell? :rofl:

If anything disproves this study....she would be it.

#32 Tigz

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 02:13 PM

I'm thinking they didnt count the Indian kids...


Or "Asian" kids either. :lol:

Excuse the stereotype. :sorry:

#33 LogicalNoMore

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 12:12 AM

Exception, not the norm.


Yep! The exceptions are the norm in this day and age....and ever so grateful for that. Think about that...

#34 Tigz

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 01:40 AM

If exceptions are the norm, then the norm is no longer the norm but the exception.
Unfortunately, there are still a lot of losers out there....so unfortunately, it is still the norm.

Throughout history there have been many people who have worked hard and bought themselves a better life, regardless of poverty or sucky parents. On the other hand, there have been many people with that have come from upper end income households and great parents that ended up in the gutter.

But norms still remain the norms. Hopefully one day they will no longer be the norm....but a person has to reach inside him/herself to find the motivation. Having decent schools go a long way to help them reach their goal...but they have to have that motivation first.

#35 angeleyeskkhr

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 01:52 PM

Tigz, have you lived in poverty? Been around it much? Researched it in-depth? I'm asking you because I seriously doubt Frosty has.

And unless you know a LOT about it, I doubt either of you are talking about norms. What y'all are talking about are stereotypes, IMO But then again, I can't say that I have a crapton of experience either so while your opinions are that it is a norm, mine are that it's stereotype. :dntknw:

I can say that while money is great, it's not everything. I don't care if I never become rich or even upper middle class because money isn't the driving factor of my life. I value do many other things more importantly--education, family, friends, happiness, integrity, among others.

*now I wouldn't refuse riches, but I'm also not pursuing that to the detriment of all I hold dear.

#36 Tigz

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 02:28 PM

No Angel, I haven't ever lived in poverty (but pretty darn close to it). But I have gone without food so my son could eat. I have worn clothes until they were just about rags so that I could clothe my son (and those were from the bargain bin at the salvation army store).

But the discussion isn't exactly poverty vs wealthy. the incomes shown shows a whole range of salaries (and none going over 200K if I remember correctly). When talking $200K, is that one parent or two working? If it is 2, they aren't all that wealthy. There are many jobs that make +/- $100K a year...and some of those jobs don't require an Einstein.

People like to throw the word "stereotype" around like it is a bad word. The truth is most "norms" become "stereotypes" (except for the stupid off the wall stereotypes that aren't based in any sort of fact or observation....those are altogether a totally different animal)

I never make an assumption of any one person based on their living environment....I base my assumption on that person's ability, personality, and perseverance .....but when you look at a group, you can't discount data just because you don't like what it says and say it is "just a stereotype".

Statically, we all fall into some sort of group. (actually, we all fall into several groups at least, depending on what types of information is being gathered) We all say that "I'm an individual" but really we aren't. There are individuals, individuals make up groups, statisticians make up statistics on those groups. Those that hired the statisticians use the data to try to .....whatever (depending on the purpose of the study). In this particular study, I would think it would be to try to find a way to improve all scores.

Like I said earlier....this study is no good if it can't find a reason (other than hypothesis) that there is a difference and find an answer to even out the playing field for ALL students.

#37 angeleyeskkhr

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 03:25 PM

Ok. All stereotypes are based on truth except those that aren't. And how do to determine which aren't? Because I tend to personally believe *most* stereotypes are base on a groups exaggerations of what they don't like or are scared of in a "different" group.

And yes I have read this discussion as one of poverty vs rich. Because what the comments have focused on from what I've read do not seem to focus on middle income but the poor group and the rich group.

#38 cashnocredit

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 03:51 PM

I never make an assumption of any one person based on their living environment....I base my assumption on that person's ability, personality, and perseverance .....but when you look at a group, you can't discount data just because you don't like what it says and say it is "just a stereotype".


And from stereotypes comes bias. Back when I was much younger, scruffy looking, with long hair and shades, I would often encounter people that made certain assumptions about my source of funds and working with bankers that didn't know me was problematic at times.

Those stereotypes were transient ones of my own doing and easily changed.

Now take the case of an employer hiring a technical specialist in a position that required more specialized math knowledge than the hiring person, or even others in the company, had. Two candidates come in, one asian and one black. It's nearly impossible for bias and stereotypes not to enter the decision process. Asians are better at math, right?

Well, I've had a very similar situation happen when I once hired a PhD level candidate. As it turned out the black candidate was the best choice. In fact his knowledge of statistics, and advanced systems exceeded mine and that's my specialty as well. It was only because of the confidence in me that others had in the organization that he was hired. He was a good hire and I came to depend on him to do the toughest jobs. Some of them I'm not sure I or others there could begin to tackle.

But what if there was no one at the company with the skills necessary to assess him against the other candidates? I suspect stereotypes would have come into play. Not from maliciousness or blatant discrimination but just a desire to hire the person percieved to be the most likely "best" candidate.

It's the world we live in and I don't know any solution but awareness helps. Sometimes.

#39 Bad Doctor Frost

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 05:26 PM

Of course stereotypes come into play. Stereotypes aren't just pulled from thin are, they're earned. The good majority are true. Whose fault is that?

#40 radi8

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 01:27 AM

The real discussion needs to be why there are two different educational systems based on what zip code you happen to be born into.


Absolutely. It's true that kids in the good zip code can flounder and those in the awful one can become shooting stars, but the cards are stacked so as to make that the less common path.

One of my wealthier friends illustrated this point quite clearly when the state cut funding for new learning software for the classrooms. He and a few other parents just wrote a check. There. Done.
Their school now has what most others do not, and the kids who attend have one more advantage that the others do not. There are fewer roadblocks to success in this sort of environment.
It has nothing to do with being smarter or dumber and everything to do with how much dirt you have to move to dig your way to the top.

#41 blackberry74

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 08:44 AM

Exactly, Radi8...and that's the real issue that nobody wants to address. Inferior schools are creating a permanent underclass and not too many people seem to care. It's disheartening.

#42 cashnocredit

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 02:00 PM

Exactly, Radi8...and that's the real issue that nobody wants to address. Inferior schools are creating a permanent underclass and not too many people seem to care. It's disheartening.

The first question a family with kids asks of a realtor is "what are the schools like?"

Everyone likes to have people to blame. Preferably other people.

One of the interesting side effects of ubiquitous tech is that learning and education is disconnecting from brick and mortar knowledge transfer factories. Zip codes, down to the 4 digit street code, where parents live will become more important than the zip codes of their schools.

#43 cljohnr

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 02:26 PM

The real discussion needs to be why there are two different educational systems based on what zip code you happen to be born into. But I suppose that's not as much fun as drawing spurious conclusions.

I think that's a gross oversimplification of the problems. Swap the students in those schools and the bad school likely becomes the good school.

#44 blackberry74

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 03:13 PM


Exactly, Radi8...and that's the real issue that nobody wants to address. Inferior schools are creating a permanent underclass and not too many people seem to care. It's disheartening.

The first question a family with kids asks of a realtor is "what are the schools like?"

Everyone likes to have people to blame. Preferably other people.

One of the interesting side effects of ubiquitous tech is that learning and education is disconnecting from brick and mortar knowledge transfer factories. Zip codes, down to the 4 digit street code, where parents live will become more important than the zip codes of their schools.


A lot of families with kids won't be asking a realtor anything of the sort since they won't be purchasing a home anytime soon. I'm not sure what your second sentence has to do with anything being discussed here. And while technology is a wonderful addition to education - the digital divide isn't going anywhere anytime soon. Those with the means can certainly "disconnect" from brick & mortar buildings, as you put it. Those who don't, can't. My whole point is public education should be the same caliber for every kid no matter their parents' financial situation. Right now it's not.


The real discussion needs to be why there are two different educational systems based on what zip code you happen to be born into. But I suppose that's not as much fun as drawing spurious conclusions.

I think that's a gross oversimplification of the problems. Swap the students in those schools and the bad school likely becomes the good school.


What you just said was a gross oversimplification. :lol:

I wonder...of the people who have contributed to this thread, how many of you have spent significant amounts of time, money, and/or effort in public schools in your area? I'm really curious.

#45 cashnocredit

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 06:22 PM

Teachers blame parents and school administrators/funding. Parents blame "schools." And well off folk increasingly opt out for private schools and at home educational suppliments.

I sure would like to see schools offering the same opportunities regardless of zip code. But how do you measure it? And how do you fix a bad school without rewarding failure?

Here's an interesting blog and post re Bill Gate's recent NYT's op ed about the mallet like approach of publishing teacher's "value added" scores.

http://www.eduwonk.c...-we-perish.html

Gates:

I am a strong proponent of measuring teachers’ effectiveness, and my foundation works with many schools to help make sure that such evaluations improve the overall quality of teaching. But publicly ranking teachers by name will not help them get better at their jobs or improve student learning. On the contrary, it will make it a lot harder to implement teacher evaluation systems that work.



#46 zx10 guy

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 10:50 AM

I'll add my persepective to this. I haven't read the article yet but will when I get the chance. I'll just provide my own personal experience to this discussion as I think it's pretty relevant. You can draw your own conclusions from my personal experience.

So some of you all know I'm Asian. First generation to be exact. My parents immigrated to this country with my dad speaking very little English and my mom none at all. We lived in what many people would call a slum as I can remember the apartments we lived in had roaches and rats. Not to mention that the general condition of the walls weren't that great with paint chips falling to the ground. With the age of the buildings, I have no doubt that I may have suffered some long lasting effects from ingesting these paint chips when I was a rug rat as I also have no doubt that there was probably lead in the paint chips. My mom has said on various occassions that she would find me picking up stuff from the ground and putting it in my mouth to include said paint chips. She did her best to keep the place clean but what can you do when the place is falling apart around you. We could have easily gone on welfare but my parents were too proud to request it. Instead, my dad worked 6 days a week for 12 hours a day at various restaruants. My mom tried to work as a waitress along with trying to learn English from the local church while enduring sexual harrassment from the restaruant patrons. This sets the baseline of how I started life.

With my education, the city school system didn't have any formal programs to help kids like me who didn't learn English as their primary language. The first hurdle which to this day is still fresh in my memory was when one of my elementary school teachers physically abused me due to the fact I couldn't pronounce a word correctly. I won't go into details about that either. Around this time, the news hit us that the slum pit we were living in was being taken over by the city so a new development could be put in its place. Because most of the families living there were living there because of the cheap rent, housing assistance was provided for those who couldn't relocate to other affordable housing. My parents, due to all the saving they did, was able to find a place in the suburbs in a better neighborhood with good schools. Other families were relocated to what many would call the ghetto or projects.

Now, I'm out of the city slum and in a better environment. My parents still worked as hard as they did with my dad still doing the same work with the same hours and my mom working two jobs. Going through the "perfect" middle class schooling environment quickly presented a few things. First, I was held back to what some would call the slow remedial learning classes until someone figured out I had a language barrier issue. Due to this realization, I received specific attention on learning English. As I was now hitting my stride and starting to excel academically, I saw the other group go through their schooling. This group was what people refer to as the ones with parents with higher incomes. The students in this class got all the latest schooling aids such as the very first computer at the elementary school. We as the "lower" achievers were not given access to this computer. Eventually, I had raised my grades and academic achievement high enough to be able to enroll in what the school system called gifted and talented classes when I started middle/junior high. Everything seemed to be going well for me with my education until I ran into a teacher which for what ever reason would not recommend me to the honors program in high school for social studies. When I asked him why, his response was that he felt I wasn't good enough despite the fact I had consistent B's in his classes on par with others he recommended.

Going through high school, I was determined to get back into the honors programs for social studies and had to do some creative scheduling and with help from my high school social studies teacher to get me back into the program. Because of this one teacher in middle school, he set me back almost a year that I had to make back up to catch up to my peers who were already in the program. Through high school, I continued enrolling in honors and AP classes. I was even enrolled into summer school not because I had to but because my parents wanted to keep my educational drive going. At the end of high school, I graduated 20th in my class of a few hundred. Of course, I continued on to attend college and receive a bachelors of science in engineering.

This was long winded and probably a bit more than what I intended to say. You all can draw your own conclusions about my experience. I left out a lot of details if you can believe it. But some things I want to bring up. The common thing about why and where I ended up from an education stand point was due primarily to my parents. They made it clear to me that I needed to focus on education to lead a better life and they were willing to do anything to make sure I had the basics to excel. The other point I want to bring up is that kids in my situation have benefited from opportunities presented by the school system. Even though I was held back in a number of occassions from external influences, I was able to overcome these issues due to available opportunities and teachers that recognized my potential and helped me along. Programs like magnet program/schools go a long way to bridging the educational gaps from the have and have not communities.

But again, the main reason for my success in education and ultimately my career I will rest solely on the sacrifices and influence of my parents.

Edited by zx10 guy, 29 February 2012 - 10:51 AM.


#47 cashnocredit

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 12:29 PM

zx10 guy,

Have you read Amy Chua's book "World on Fire"

She's a Yale law prof. on International Trade. The book is largely about sundry entrepreneurial minorities in conflict with entrenched majorities in countries all around the globe. I found it much more interesting than the Dragon Mom book.

#48 blackberry74

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 12:45 PM

Thanks for sharing your story, zx10. I appreciate it.

#49 zx10 guy

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 12:51 PM

zx10 guy,

Have you read Amy Chua's book "World on Fire"

She's a Yale law prof. on International Trade. The book is largely about sundry entrepreneurial minorities in conflict with entrenched majorities in countries all around the globe. I found it much more interesting than the Dragon Mom book.


No, I haven't. Unfortunately, I don't get to do much recreational reading. I'll see about taking a loot at that book.

#50 zx10 guy

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 12:56 PM

Thanks for sharing your story, zx10. I appreciate it.


You're welcome. A felt a bit wierd airing my dirty laundry but just wanted to provide a personal insight on someone who actually lived the topic being discussed on the far end of the disadvantaged group.




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