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Law Professor Says Walk Away


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109 replies to this topic

#51 SportsNut

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 08:35 PM

My point is the banks are going to be there, your not going to get back at them just because you foreclose. A borrower may be on the streets but those banks building will still be there. It's the sad truth -- we can all see that from TARP.

IE. Maybe I come off strict or all for banks...but you have to understand I see these things on a daily basis...and I don't ALWAYS think the banks are in the right.


Actually the banks aren't all going to be there; many have been weeded out thusfar and it is entirely likely that many more will be weeded out too. If/when these banks have to do a fair assessment valuation of the paper that they have on the books, many will be insolvent. The okey-doke game that the banks are playing to "delay" that day of reconning is part of what is hurting many of these folks that are bleeding from the knees and begging for these modifications.

The (*&*%&^#) banks are simply playing everyone for fools and the Fed/FDIC are assisting right along to allow this heinous crime; and yes it is a crime what they doing day in and day out. Why don't the banks have to use the same process that corps have to use... mark to market accting...? Because the picture would be too UGLY, that is why, and the entire financial system would tank again. I have no empathy for these institutions, based on the horrendous transgressions that I have seen.

Hey, other than that... all these bankers are fine people. :(

#52 Mayor

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 10:23 PM

Actually the more people make banks fail the more it costs us. When a bank fails the FDIC takes over... Which is costing us. Than the FDIC is just going to sell the bank to another bank and give them a great deal in purchasing it which costs the FDIC more. (IE the FDIC will help take losses for buying the new bank)...In return the more we think were taking the bank down were just costing ourselves (tax payers) and another bank gets a good deal.

Edited by Mayor, 14 January 2010 - 10:27 PM.


#53 radi8

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 11:38 PM

And all that will happen is banks will get more strict with loaning so it will be difficult for people to get loans for homes and be renting..The only person that going to hurt is people trying to get loans for homes.


Perhaps, but it won't stay that way for long. Banks don't make money by paying interest on deposits but not collecting interest on loans.
Once the current mess shakes out, they'll be back to courting even the subprime borrowers again- because that's where the money is.

#54 snax

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 11:48 PM

Mayor, I think the disconnect here is in cause and effect. Those of us behind the walk-away philosophy feel that the damage has already been done. This is the fallout from a deregulation bomb that was set off years ago.

It's like rats from a sinking ship. Many will jump overboard. Others will scurry frantically back and forth until they are ultimately stepping on top of one another. No matter how you slice it however, the ship (at least at this point) is still going further under water. So one can choose to be a rat swimming clear of the floundering hulk, or take one's chances with getting sucked under by staying aboard what could ultimately sink entirely.

Edited by snax, 14 January 2010 - 11:51 PM.


#55 Mayor

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 11:51 PM

Mayor, I think the disconnect here is in cause and effect. Those of us behind the walk-away philosophy feel the that damage has already been done. This is the fallout from a deregulation bomb that was set off years ago.

It's like rats from a sinking ship. Many will jump overboard. Others will scurry frantically back and forth until they are ultimately stepping on top of one another. No matter how you slice it however, the ship (at least at this point) is still going down. So one can choose to be a rat swimming clear of the sinking hulk, or take ones chances with not getting sucked under by staying aboard.

Very well said I have to admit! :grin:

#56 caffeinekid

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 06:31 PM

Mayor, I think the disconnect here is in cause and effect. Those of us behind the walk-away philosophy feel that the damage has already been done. This is the fallout from a deregulation bomb that was set off years ago.

It's like rats from a sinking ship. Many will jump overboard. Others will scurry frantically back and forth until they are ultimately stepping on top of one another. No matter how you slice it however, the ship (at least at this point) is still going further under water. So one can choose to be a rat swimming clear of the floundering hulk, or take one's chances with getting sucked under by staying aboard what could ultimately sink entirely.

Please don't blame deregulation. Currency manipulation, which is at the core of this calamity is regulation's Frankenstein.

I agree with the analogy though. Only I would add that the bailout was a nice long paper rope thrown into the water for the Wall Street rats to climb on. Once they are on dry land in their fortified compounds and private islands, the rope will dissolve in the water leaving....

#57 hegemony

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 08:03 PM

what currency manipulation?

#58 caffeinekid

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 08:59 PM

what currency manipulation?

The lack of competition in specifically, but generally flooding the market with cheap currency. Cheap and easy credit is what caused this problem, not a lack of regulation. See- Keynesian vs Austrian economics. It always ends up at the Fed's doorstep when you cut through the crap.

#59 radi8

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 09:19 PM

It always ends up at the Fed's doorstep when you cut through the crap.


Then why did some of the most severe bubbles and crashes in our history happen when we were on the gold standard, long before the Fed came to be?

#60 caffeinekid

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 10:02 AM

It always ends up at the Fed's doorstep when you cut through the crap.


Then why did some of the most severe bubbles and crashes in our history happen when we were on the gold standard, long before the Fed came to be?

1. Because bubbles and busts are natural to a degree. And they were nothing compared to what is in store for us. The Fed was ALLEGEDLY designed to prevent them, yet here we are....how could this be? In the meantime, as a result of "controls" we are $12 trillion and counting in official debt and almost 3X that amount in future obligations. And that is just the government. Last time I saw the figures, this accounted for about $178,000 worth of debt per US household. When you throw in the level of consumer obligations it becomes apparent just how (I would argue) hopelessly insolvent we really are. And now we are seriously talking about revamping the failed socialist model to include national health care?
2. It doesn't matter what happened prior to the Federal Reserve Act and the National Income Tax. What matters is the massive inflation and subsequent devaluation of currency that has resulted since, not to mention the breakneck advances in technology, exponential human population growth and adverse effect on natural resources.

This housing mess is but a pock on a big ugly beast that people have trouble stepping far enough away from to acknowledge. At least some have smelled the cat food or otherwise have sufficient instinct to see what is going on and are taking the appropriate action by walking away. Credit cards should be next. The sooner this mess splatters, the sooner we can get real again.

#61 HappyInTexas

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 11:19 AM

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

If anyone wants a headache, go spend 5 minutes with that web site...

#62 hegemony

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 02:20 PM

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

If anyone wants a headache, go spend 5 minutes with that web site...

I love that site.

I like this one too

http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/

#63 Rob T

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 06:19 PM

When you really look at it, the entire premise that there is a moral obligation attached to repaying debts that were extended to you based on an evaluation of your credit simply doesn't hold water. Regardless of what the recorded message says when you call your bank's toll-free number, they don't value your business - they value the potential profit the business you do with them represents. The bank's motivation for doing business with you has nothing to do with morality - it's profit. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that fact, since a bank's stated purpose is do conduct business in order to enhance shareholder value. If you don't like it, find a different type of banking relationship (such as a CU, perhaps).

When banks lend money, they do so by evaluating basically 2 primary factors - risk and profit. Morality has nothing to do with it. Now, for some convoluted reason, there is this expectation that a borrower should repay this debt due to some some moral obligation. This is where I call BS. Why should the borrower be bound by morality, when the bank is not? If the borrower doesn't pay, is the bank's decision to repo the collateral based on morals? When the bank signs an order to have a former owner evicted from what was once their own property, is that decision based on morals? ABSOLUTELY NOT! They are simply following the terms of the contract. But, that street runs both ways! If a borrower determines that it's in his/her best interest to not fulfill the terms of a contract, that's a business decision. The consequences of that decision are clearly outlined in the contract, which should enable the borrower to do their own risk/reward assessment and make a decision. It's the same with a mortgage, credit card, car loan, or anything else. Banks breach contracts all the time when it makes financial sense for them to do so. Consumers need to approach these contracts with the same mindset.

As for the premise that homeowners should do the "responsible" thing, and continue to make bad business decisions by throwing away good money after bad in order to keep their neighbor's house from dropping in value or other similar arguments, again I don't think these arguments hold water. The problems with our housing market are systemic. Sure, it's worse in some areas than in others, but there really isn't anyone that hasn't been impacted. Until the system as a whole starts to re-balance itself, which is a ways off, the best each borrower can do it make a determination for their own situation.

Finally,

Then why did some of the most severe bubbles and crashes in our history happen when we were on the gold standard, long before the Fed came to be?


Small bubbles and corrections are normal. It's called Austrian Business Cycle Theory. Fiat money, however, exacerbates these normal events and turns them into the monster bubble/crash/recession/recovery cycles we all know and love. An example would be the economic crash following the civil war. Lincoln took the US off the gold standard during the war, and as a result, the economy crashed shortly after the war ended. Luckily the government didn't really try and "fix" the problem, allowing the economy to recover pretty quickly.

The worst crashes, However, have been a result of Fed manipulation of interest rates, followed by manipulation of the money supply. In the crash of 1929, the Fed had been manipulating rates, causing a bubble. When the market crashed, FDR massively inflated the supply of money by forcing all Americans to turn in their physical gold, then resetting the price of gold from $20 per oz to $35 per oz. That along with the biggest binge of reckless government spending in history up to that point caused the depression to continue for a decade. If you can't see the parallels, maybe a couple of books would help -

Meltdown by Tom Woods
Economics in One Lesson by Henry Hazlitt

Flame ON!

#64 spikedup

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 06:19 PM

2. It doesn't matter what happened prior to the Federal Reserve Act and the National Income Tax. What matters is the massive inflation and subsequent devaluation of currency that has resulted since, not to mention the breakneck advances in technology, exponential human population growth and adverse effect on natural resources.


What massive inflation? There has been no massive inflation yet. You seem to like to make things up to strengthen your point.

And what's wrong with "breakneck advances in human technology"? Are you anti-technology? And where's this exponential human population of growth? You're a funny dude. I can predict your argument in any of your posts.

Edited by spikedup, 16 January 2010 - 06:29 PM.


#65 hegemony

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 06:42 PM

gotta love all the references to Austrian NON-ECONOMICS

:dntknw:

someone must have read the von mises entry on wikipedia.

#66 Rob T

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 06:45 PM

What massive inflation?


Like so many people, you don't understand the true definition of inflation. Inflation is defined as an artificial increase in the money supply. Price increases are just the most obvious trailing effect of inflation (along with rising interest rates and a number of other side effects).

The inflation is here - it's just that the other shoe has yet to drop, since a lot of the money pumped in to the system is still sitting in bank reserve coffers. As soon as banks start to loosen and allow some of that money into circulation, whether by choice or through government intervention, get ready for the real party. Combine the already existing money creation with fractional reserve lending policies, and look out.

If you REALLY want to understand, take a look at the books I suggested a few posts up.

#67 Rob T

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 06:49 PM

gotta love all the references to Austrian NON-ECONOMICS

:rolleyes:

someone must have read the von mises entry on wikipedia.


That's funny Hege - from my few weeks of visiting these boards, you seem to be pretty on top of it. I'm kind of surprised to hear you knock on Mises. ;)

We should get together sometime for a beer/coffee and talk about it. You are in Vegas, right? (me too).

#68 hegemony

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 06:52 PM

take a look at the books I suggested a few posts up.

this are manifestos for dogmatic libertarianism. no thanks

#69 hegemony

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 06:54 PM

gotta love all the references to Austrian NON-ECONOMICS

:rolleyes:

someone must have read the von mises entry on wikipedia.


That's funny Hege - from my few weeks of visiting these boards, you seem to be pretty on top of it. I'm kind of surprised to hear you knock on Mises. ;)

We should get together sometime for a beer/coffee and talk about it. You are in Vegas, right? (me too).


von mises was too one-dimensional. I'll stick with hayek

#70 spikedup

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 06:58 PM

Like so many people, you don't understand the true definition of inflation. Inflation is defined as an artificial increase in the money supply. Price increases are just the most obvious trailing effect of inflation (along with rising interest rates and a number of other side effects).

The inflation is here - it's just that the other shoe has yet to drop, since a lot of the money pumped in to the system is still sitting in bank reserve coffers. As soon as banks start to loosen and allow some of that money into circulation, whether by choice or through government intervention, get ready for the real party. Combine the already existing money creation with fractional reserve lending policies, and look out.

If you REALLY want to understand, take a look at the books I suggested a few posts up.


I understand what inflation is. The money supply has definitely increased. That much is known. While a lot of people have predicted prices would rise, it hasn't yet. We'll see if it does. But until then, it's just innuendo.

#71 hegemony

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 07:01 PM

Rob, I will take you up on the beer though LOL

#72 acesfull

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 07:40 PM

Hi All


Principle Reductions is the only answer. If for only to keep homeowners in the home with the hope that the housing market will rebound.

The greedy lenders probably won't start doing this until it is to late. Just my two cents.

Great topic by the way.

Best to all

acesfull

#73 caffeinekid

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 07:57 PM

2. It doesn't matter what happened prior to the Federal Reserve Act and the National Income Tax. What matters is the massive inflation and subsequent devaluation of currency that has resulted since, not to mention the breakneck advances in technology, exponential human population growth and adverse effect on natural resources.


What massive inflation? There has been no massive inflation yet. You seem to like to make things up to strengthen your point.

And what's wrong with "breakneck advances in human technology"? Are you anti-technology? And where's this exponential human population of growth? You're a funny dude. I can predict your argument in any of your posts.

What massive inflation? And you say that "I" am funny? Try researching the purchasing power of the US Dollar over the last 90 years or so. Last I checked, we were at about $0.04 which indicates a fairly steady decline since the Federal Reserve Act. And the last year that the Dollar was actually worth a dollar, the US population was about a third of what it is now...all within a little less than 100 years. Currency regulation has consequences beyond mere inflation. You can figure out the technology aspect yourself. If you cannot make the connection, then so be it.

#74 spikedup

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 08:33 PM

What massive inflation? And you say that "I" am funny? Try researching the purchasing power of the US Dollar over the last 90 years or so. Last I checked, we were at about $0.04 which indicates a fairly steady decline since the Federal Reserve Act. And the last year that the Dollar was actually worth a dollar, the US population was about a third of what it is now...all within a little less than 100 years. Currency regulation has consequences beyond mere inflation. You can figure out the technology aspect yourself. If you cannot make the connection, then so be it.


I didn't say there hasn't been inflation. There hasn't been MASSIVE inflation(you seem to like to exaggerate to make any point more dire). What's the average inflation over the last 100 years? Like 3 percent? That's massive? Also inflation isn't neccessarily bad.

Yes, the population has increased? So? That's bad too now?

And, yes, I can't figure out this technology aspect. It's likely that to post here, you're typing from a computer using the internet and its hubs of other computers.

Besides, population increase and technology seem to be unrelated to the original point. You seem to like to rant against a lot of things. What's next? Cats? The insidiousness of these furry four-legged creatures and their meowing over the last 100 years, and how, they too, ruined the US economy?

Edited by spikedup, 16 January 2010 - 08:34 PM.


#75 flacorps

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 08:41 PM

The Treasury will need to sell 11 times the debt in 2010 than they did in 2009. The options for making that happen are threefold and none are attractive: massive inflation, crash the stock market or let interest rates go to the moon.

Pick your poison.




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