Bank Fees, PNC Options

[paula10468]

How do these big banks get away with the order in which they post items to your account??? No matter what order you paid for anything, they always take the largest item first so that they can suck more OD fees out of you! I know, no one needs to tell me that you shouldn't overdraw your account, but it happens even if you try hard not to.

An example, this past weekend was a long one. It was Valentines day Saturday, my daughters birthday Sunday, and my husbands birthday on Monday. I went shopping a few times, realized I needed to add a little more money and transferred it from my savings. All was well except for a couple outstanding $1.00 gas holds.

Tuesday comes and an automatic payment for my cell phones came out. I wasn't expecting it to come out for another day. So what my bank does is take that large cell phone payment out FIRST, which takes the majority of the money and then there were TEN (10) OD charges assessed from all my little purchases this past weekend. I would rather have had my cell phone payment returned instead of this! If you call them they just say that is the way it is, PERIOD.

This has happened before and my account was only short a couple dollars, but once they assess a fee, it overdraws it more and then it is like a snowball!! I read about this last year but never gave it much thought until it happened to me. It seems like it should be illegal or against some kind of regulation.

I am moving our accounts to a local credit union because it is hard enough keeping up now without paying some bank executives salary with my money. I made sure they do not have the same policies as PNC first, and the lady I talked to said she used to work for one of the banks and she knew EXACTLY what I was talking about. I don't know how some of those people sleep at night! mad.gif

OH! I almost forgot, how quickly do banks report you to Chexsystems? My account is overdrawn and if I pay the whole thing now I won't be able to survive this week because I will have no money! I figured I would pay them a little at a time. So how long will I be safe from the Chex monster?

[Googie]

[goldtrad]

Sorry OP but the banks are not your friend. Call and ask them to reverse the charges but this is another reason not to cut it too close. They are very hungry for fees now.

[nyrfann]

How do these big banks get away with the order in which they post items to your account??? No matter what order you paid for anything, they always take the largest item first so that they can suck more OD fees out of you! I know, no one needs to tell me that you shouldn't overdraw your account, but it happens even if you try hard not to.

An example, this past weekend was a long one. It was Valentines day Saturday, my daughters birthday Sunday, and my husbands birthday on Monday. I went shopping a few times, realized I needed to add a little more money and transferred it from my savings. All was well except for a couple outstanding $1.00 gas holds.

Tuesday comes and an automatic payment for my cell phones came out. I wasn't expecting it to come out for another day. So what my bank does is take that large cell phone payment out FIRST, which takes the majority of the money and then there were TEN (10) OD charges assessed from all my little purchases this past weekend. I would rather have had my cell phone payment returned instead of this! If you call them they just say that is the way it is, PERIOD.

This has happened before and my account was only short a couple dollars, but once they assess a fee, it overdraws it more and then it is like a snowball!! I read about this last year but never gave it much thought until it happened to me. It seems like it should be illegal or against some kind of regulation.

I am moving our accounts to a local credit union because it is hard enough keeping up now without paying some bank executives salary with my money. I made sure they do not have the same policies as PNC first, and the lady I talked to said she used to work for one of the banks and she knew EXACTLY what I was talking about. I don't know how some of those people sleep at night! mad.gif

OH! I almost forgot, how quickly do banks report you to Chexsystems? My account is overdrawn and if I pay the whole thing now I won't be able to survive this week because I will have no money! I figured I would pay them a little at a time. So how long will I be safe from the Chex monster?

I'm assuming you used a debit card, no good!
Unfortunately the bank did the pay out properly. The automatic payment hits @ 12am, the pending charges (you made) come out "x' amount of hours after the charge NOT at 12am like your cell phone payment. The bank has not way of knowing the pending authorizations (charges) you made will even go though so they have to honor the transactions that post 1st, i.e. the cell phone payment.

It sucks but as you already said you should not OD it can costs $$$. As for you comment about "it happens even if you try hard not to", I've have a checking account for close to 20 years, I've never paid a OD fee.

This post has been edited by nyrfann: Feb 22 2009, 01:06 PM

[chriswufgator]

This is exactly why you shouldn't use a debit card.

[hegemony]

This is exactly why you shouldn't use a debit card.

+10,000

[EarnIt]

A CU might be a better choice for you. And if possible, for those weeks that you cut it close, consider (credit permitting) applying for an over draft LOC that is attached to your checking account. Even a small line can save you hundreds if not thousands over time.

As to paying the fees to stay out of Chex, I suggest calling and working out a payment plan. And although you are very upset now, try to remember it is not the fault of the CSR when calling. Being as nice as possible to the CSR, might get you better arrangements

[deemac]

Do go talk to them. It depends on the bank, but most will work with you in that situation. I had a similar situation and they credited back over half the fees. (I sent my husband to the bank with my atm card to make a deposit; later that day he made a purchase and inadvertently used my card instead of his. We have separate accounts.)


I think you'll probably have 30 days from the date it went negative to fix the account, but again that may depend on the individual bank.

[nyrfann]

A CU might be a better choice for you. And if possible, for those weeks that you cut it close, consider (credit permitting) applying for an over draft LOC that is attached to your checking account. Even a small line can save you hundreds if not thousands over time.

As to paying the fees to stay out of Chex, I suggest calling and working out a payment plan. And although you are very upset now, try to remember it is not the fault of the CSR when calling. Being as nice as possible to the CSR, might get you better arrangements

A CU would handle this exactly the same way, the only difference is the CU would probably be more willing to work with you on the fees.

For the future do one of 2 things, get OD protect as Earnit suggested or if you can't keep a buffer amount in your checking account.

[EarnIt]

A CU might be a better choice for you. And if possible, for those weeks that you cut it close, consider (credit permitting) applying for an over draft LOC that is attached to your checking account. Even a small line can save you hundreds if not thousands over time.

As to paying the fees to stay out of Chex, I suggest calling and working out a payment plan. And although you are very upset now, try to remember it is not the fault of the CSR when calling. Being as nice as possible to the CSR, might get you better arrangements

A CU would handle this exactly the same way, the only difference is the CU would probably be more willing to work with you on the fees.

For the future do one of 2 things, get OD protect as Earnit suggested or if you can't keep a buffer amount in your checking account.

Yes, I found CU's to be very understanding about working with you on fees. I have also, never had any complaints with PNC either. Well other than them buying Nat City and me having a CO with Nat City so I jumped out of PNC as quick as I could, just to be safe.

[philly_mscl]

I don't understand. You're moving your accounts to a credit union where it's probably just as likely that they post to their accounts in exactly the same way.

As a former programmer for U_S_A_A, I can tell you right now that most banks and credit unions follow the same accounting procedures for updating liability accounts. Your checking/savings account is the bank's liability, that's why a deposit is a a DEBIT to your assets but it's a CREDIT to the bank.

Most bank's internal software has absolutely no idea what order your electronic account debits arrive in when they hit electronically. They know the date because that's the only date/time specific information they need to know when recording the transaction. The timestamp information is not stored on the bank's general accounts system. That data is stored over on various EBT systems like ACH FedWire, FirstData, etc.

On top of this, the actual posting process does not cycle through each customer's account individually. All these transactions are posted in batch, including physical transactions when you turn up at the motor window or go inside to a teller.


The nightly posting process goes something like this:

1. Post general disbursements
2. Post compensating transactions
3. Post adjustment tickets
4. Fee generation posting
5. Post receipts on customer accounts
6. Post disbursements on customer accounts


When your account credit (deposit) hits depends on where in the cycle that credit occurs. If it's a checking deposit with a check drawn from another bank, this will take the longest time to process because the bank has to prepare the check for re-presentment at the clearing bank... and these days that is prepared through another external system that the banks are hooked into to clear those [they go out as ACH-style "e-checks"].

On ACH deposits if those transactions appear at the bank before 3PM on a business day in your time zone, most banks will have them fully-posted by the next morning, whenever the bank runs their nightly batch jobs.

For direct WIRE transfers either through ACH or a FedWire, those are required to be made available if the wire is received by 3PM Eastern cutoff, then it will be posted during that evening's batch cycle. Direct wires are unique in that the funds are required to be made available as soon as the bank recognizes that they have received the wire... which is before 3PM in the bank's time zone.



It is solely up to the bank's discretion during the posting process whether or not it will honor a payment transaction during the posting cycle when the bank has not yet posted the receipt of funds to make your account solvent. At my bank (TD Bank, PNC's competitor), the rule generally is that if there is any pending deposit transaction hanging, or you receive regular DIRECT DEPOSITS to your account--you will have about 24 hours to cover the deficiency before the payments actually post.


You can actually SEE this happen if you go and look at your bank's online website.


Statement Balance == What's posted to your account
Available Balance == What has NOT yet posted to your account [but it will post TONIGHT]


If your AVAILABLE BALANCE goes negative, that means you are guaranteed to go NSF if you don't cover the deficiency immediately. A cash deposit at a teller window or at an ATM terminal is usually the easiest and fastest way to make sure that when the bank runs its posting batch jobs, that you won't get socked with an NSF.


If looked after you made your shopping trips that Valentine's Day weekend, you would have seen the deficiency appear in your available balance by the next business day.




I'm sorry you had to go through this the hard way. If it's any consolation, if you live on the East Coast... former Commerce Bank of PA (now TD Bank), is more acutely aware of this issue with customers who maintain low balances and you shouldn't run into a situation like this at TD.

If you switch to TD though for the free checking, you need to keep your balance above $100 throughout the month to avoid a cycle service charge ($15).

How do these big banks get away with the order in which they post items to your account??? No matter what order you paid for anything, they always take the largest item first so that they can suck more OD fees out of you! I know, no one needs to tell me that you shouldn't overdraw your account, but it happens even if you try hard not to.

An example, this past weekend was a long one. It was Valentines day Saturday, my daughters birthday Sunday, and my husbands birthday on Monday. I went shopping a few times, realized I needed to add a little more money and transferred it from my savings. All was well except for a couple outstanding $1.00 gas holds.

Tuesday comes and an automatic payment for my cell phones came out. I wasn't expecting it to come out for another day. So what my bank does is take that large cell phone payment out FIRST, which takes the majority of the money and then there were TEN (10) OD charges assessed from all my little purchases this past weekend. I would rather have had my cell phone payment returned instead of this! If you call them they just say that is the way it is, PERIOD.

This has happened before and my account was only short a couple dollars, but once they assess a fee, it overdraws it more and then it is like a snowball!! I read about this last year but never gave it much thought until it happened to me. It seems like it should be illegal or against some kind of regulation.

I am moving our accounts to a local credit union because it is hard enough keeping up now without paying some bank executives salary with my money. I made sure they do not have the same policies as PNC first, and the lady I talked to said she used to work for one of the banks and she knew EXACTLY what I was talking about. I don't know how some of those people sleep at night! mad.gif

OH! I almost forgot, how quickly do banks report you to Chexsystems? My account is overdrawn and if I pay the whole thing now I won't be able to survive this week because I will have no money! I figured I would pay them a little at a time. So how long will I be safe from the Chex monster?

[philly_mscl]

Does ChexSystems even matter anymore?


I mean, other than for presenting the occasional physical check at a Wal-Mart or a grocery store (who still does this?) I can't even see how Chex is even relevant considering most people go with only cash or plastic.

A CU might be a better choice for you. And if possible, for those weeks that you cut it close, consider (credit permitting) applying for an over draft LOC that is attached to your checking account. Even a small line can save you hundreds if not thousands over time.

As to paying the fees to stay out of Chex, I suggest calling and working out a payment plan. And although you are very upset now, try to remember it is not the fault of the CSR when calling. Being as nice as possible to the CSR, might get you better arrangements

[thesaintly]

I recommend paying all your bills manually online instead of through an automatic payment which may cause you to overdraft. If you are sure you wish to use the debt card, make sure you have enough in the account or don't use auto-pay.

[Trapani]

Unless you make a habit of overdrawing your account on a monthly basis, you'll most likely find they'll be willing to waive the fees if you ask.

Sounds like you're closing the account and taking your business elsewhere regardless, but I've found that a friendly (ie not angry or threatening or trying to blame the bank's CSR for what has happened) "I realize that I'm the one at fault here and that these fees are clearly laid out in your terms and conditions, but I'm sure you'll understand that it leaves a nasty taste in my mouth to be stuck with all these fees for an honest mistake that I rectified straight away, so I'm going to be switching my checking over to XXXX bank and closing my account" will quickly result in a goodwill fee-waiving gesture.

[jackgehr]

paula,

Sorry for your misfortune but the easiest resolution is to : 1. Request a $1,000 LOC to your checking, or 2. attach your checking to your savings. These options solve the problem.

[philly_mscl]

Unless you make a habit of overdrawing your account on a monthly basis, you'll most likely find they'll be willing to waive the fees if you ask.

Sounds like you're closing the account and taking your business elsewhere regardless, but I've found that a friendly (ie not angry or threatening or trying to blame the bank's CSR for what has happened) "I realize that I'm the one at fault here and that these fees are clearly laid out in your terms and conditions, but I'm sure you'll understand that it leaves a nasty taste in my mouth to be stuck with all these fees for an honest mistake that I rectified straight away, so I'm going to be switching my checking over to XXXX bank and closing my account" will quickly result in a goodwill fee-waiving gesture.

All banks are willing to some to some degree to waive any fee. If you make routine visits inside your branch and the teller staff actually recognize you---when you demand to ask for the branch manager you'll get the 5-star treatment after you explain your situation.


As far as tantrums go,
I can tell you from experience, the larger your balance is with the bank, the more the bank will actually care when you're screaming mad. If the sum is pretty significant for that bank branch (>$100,000) they will and trip over their feet to rush to your aid when you are angry. The larger the sum is when you threaten to pull out everything and leave, especially if it's a small bank or credit union, the more it hurts the bank.


If you're cutting it close month to month but you do generate fee income for the bank... cycle service charges and what-not... the bank will still want to keep you. If you can't get a fee waived at a convenient branch, try a different branch and explain your situation again. Oftentimes you'll discover that it's not really the bank that is unwilling to work with you---it's the employees inside the branch you go to who are airheads.


Depositors who wipe out their accounts at the bank branch do turn up in the branch's performance reports that go to the mother bank.


I've seen employers wipe out their deposit accounts and relocate them because of a customer service episode, then send a similarly tongue-in-cheek letters and emails to their employees why their paychecks/advice slips will have a different bank name on them. Banks are absolutely scared of stuff like that---because banks survive on reputation. When an employer or a municipality yanks their deposit accounts and tells their payees in no certain terms "Bank of FEE sucks!", a lot of bank executives will looking to fire the employees involved in losing the accounts.

[hendry70]

Does ChexSystems even matter anymore?

It does if you want a bank account.

[whoneedscredit]

Does ChexSystems even matter anymore?


I mean, other than for presenting the occasional physical check at a Wal-Mart or a grocery store (who still does this?) I can't even see how Chex is even relevant considering most people go with only cash or plastic.

A CU might be a better choice for you. And if possible, for those weeks that you cut it close, consider (credit permitting) applying for an over draft LOC that is attached to your checking account. Even a small line can save you hundreds if not thousands over time.

As to paying the fees to stay out of Chex, I suggest calling and working out a payment plan. And although you are very upset now, try to remember it is not the fault of the CSR when calling. Being as nice as possible to the CSR, might get you better arrangements

Yes, Chex does matter, being in Chex will not stop you from writing a check at a store, that is typically SCAN. Chex is the database that banks check before they will allow you to open an account. If you are in Chex you can pretty much forget about opening a new checking account, some banks won't even allow you to open a savings account.