Unarmed boy shot and killed by neighborhood watch captain...

[orangecrush]

By saying the guy did not commit a crime, and then sending it to the state attorney to "make the decision on filing charges", the police are just passing the buck. Very seldom will the state attorney file charges against a person when the police don't support filing the charges. This is just a way for the police to take some of the heat off themselves.

 

I do trust that SA office because I have dealt with them a lot in the past. But can you imagine them filing the charges, going to trial, and having the police testify that they didn't think charges were justified? Makes it difficult to win the case.

 

I think it is time to get the FDLE in for an independant investigation and then send the case to the statewide prosecutor for the prosecution. Both have offices in Orlando, just about 30 miles away. And both have great reputations. And, they tend to keep politics and local prejudices out of the equation. And, a change of venue might help.

 

 

Most juries are not stupid and what a cop thinks should happen is not how they decide their verdict.

 

If having a cop think charges were justified make it easier to win a case, then no one would ever be found not guilty.

[cljohnr]

Prosecutors, or their bosses, are generally elected officials. I expect charges will be filed.

[dingaling]

Orangecrush:

 

I disagree with you. What the police say does have a large bearing on the outcome of a trial. Especially in a case like this. Seminole County is a mixture of the old south with a lot of small town folk. But the majority is now working class who have moved to the suburbs of Orlando. The schools are above average so the people are decently educated.

 

I have watched lots of trials, and many were in Seminole county. I know who most of the Judges, prosecutors, and law enforcement are. I lived there for a long time. And, I have served on juries there. If the police say the guy did not do it, a typical jury in that county will give that a lot of weight. That is why I think that they need to go outside to the statewide prosecutor and the FDLE to get an impartial investigation and trial. And they need a change of venue. Just a short ride down I-4 to Orlando would get them a fair trial. Or, go north to Deland (near Daytona). Both of those are different circuits.

 

But, on the last jury I served on there, we completly disregarded all police testimony and acquitted the guy who already had a criminal record. So, maybe you are right. But I still think that this case is being pushed in the wrong way. To be fair, they need to go outside the county.

[orangecrush]

Orangecrush:

 

I disagree with you. What the police say does have a large bearing on the outcome of a trial. Especially in a case like this. Seminole County is a mixture of the old south with a lot of small town folk. But the majority is now working class who have moved to the suburbs of Orlando. The schools are above average so the people are decently educated.

 

I have watched lots of trials, and many were in Seminole county. I know who most of the Judges, prosecutors, and law enforcement are. I lived there for a long time. And, I have served on juries there. If the police say the guy did not do it, a typical jury in that county will give that a lot of weight. That is why I think that they need to go outside to the statewide prosecutor and the FDLE to get an impartial investigation and trial. And they need a change of venue. Just a short ride down I-4 to Orlando would get them a fair trial. Or, go north to Deland (near Daytona). Both of those are different circuits.

 

But, on the last jury I served on there, we completly disregarded all police testimony and acquitted the guy who already had a criminal record. So, maybe you are right. But I still think that this case is being pushed in the wrong way. To be fair, they need to go outside the county.

 

 

I know exactly what Sanford is like. As I said, people are not stupid. This case has people of every race, religion and socio-economic group in Sanford pissed off. The same people who are the typical jurors.

 

People are not that thrilled with the Sanford police department, due to incidents like this one and other shadiness.

[Tigz]

It doesn't matter what the cops or even the local SAO thinks. This will probably go before the Grand Jury to determine if the man is indicted. If the local SAO does nothing, you can bet it will go before the Grand Jury...not just the case, but how the case was handled.

So it would be smart for the local SAO to just turn it over to the grand jury from the get-go to ease the tension in the community.

[dingaling]

My first reaction to the last post was it is not going to the grand jury unless the SA takes it there. And, they typically don't use the grand jury unless it is a capital case. But, on reflection, the grand jury might be the way to go. Whatever they do, the police will point to the Grand jury if anything goes wrong with the case. It is a good way to get rid of a hot potato case like this.

 

Just remember - its not whether you are right or wrong; its where you place the blame.

 

I still think that this case has reached the point where it would be best to take it outside the county. Bring in the statewide prosecutor, move it to another county, and let the FDLE investigate. Too much funny stuff has already happened. Unless somthing is done to bring in impartiality, most people will think any resolution was the result of bias.

[orangecrush]

I too think that an outside agency should look into it. With what some witnesses are saying and the fact that the chief has been caught in a lie regarding the shooter's record. The investigation needs to be handled by an entity that is impartial (or at least appears that way).

[orangecrush]

abcnews.go.com/US/neighborhood-watch-shooting-trayvon-martin-probe-reveals-questionable/story?id=15907136

 

 

Witnesses told ABC News a fist fight broke out and at one point Zimmerman, who outweighed Martin by more than 100 pounds, was on the ground and that Martin was on top.

 

Austin Brown, 13, was walking his dog during the time of the altercation and saw both men on the ground but separated.

 

Brown along with several other residents heard someone cry for help, just before hearing a gunshot. Police arrived 60 seconds later and the teen was quickly pronounced dead.

 

According to the police report, Zimmerman, who was armed with a handgun, was found bleeding from the nose and the back of the head, standing over Martin, who was unresponsive after being shot.

 

An officer at the scene overheard Zimmerman saying, "I was yelling for someone to help me but no one would help me," the report said.

 

Witnesses told ABC News they heard Zimmerman pronounce aloud to the breathless residents watching the violence unfold "it was self-defense," and place the gun on the ground.

 

 

But after the shooting, a source inside the police department told ABC News that a narcotics detective and not a homicide detective first approached Zimmerman. The detective pepppered Zimmerman with questions, the source said, rather than allow Zimmerman to tell his story. Questions can lead a witness, the source said.

 

Another officer corrected a witness after she told him that she heard the teen cry for help.

 

The officer told the witness, a long-time teacher, it was Zimmerman who cried for help, said the witness. ABC News has spoken to the teacher and she confirmed that the officer corrected her when she said she heard the teenager shout for help.

[sirrowan]

abcnews.go.com/US/neighborhood-watch-shooting-trayvon-martin-probe-reveals-questionable/story?id=15907136

 

 

Witnesses told ABC News a fist fight broke out and at one point Zimmerman, who outweighed Martin by more than 100 pounds, was on the ground and that Martin was on top.

 

Austin Brown, 13, was walking his dog during the time of the altercation and saw both men on the ground but separated.

 

Brown along with several other residents heard someone cry for help, just before hearing a gunshot. Police arrived 60 seconds later and the teen was quickly pronounced dead.

 

According to the police report, Zimmerman, who was armed with a handgun, was found bleeding from the nose and the back of the head, standing over Martin, who was unresponsive after being shot.

 

An officer at the scene overheard Zimmerman saying, "I was yelling for someone to help me but no one would help me," the report said.

 

Witnesses told ABC News they heard Zimmerman pronounce aloud to the breathless residents watching the violence unfold "it was self-defense," and place the gun on the ground.

 

 

But after the shooting, a source inside the police department told ABC News that a narcotics detective and not a homicide detective first approached Zimmerman. The detective pepppered Zimmerman with questions, the source said, rather than allow Zimmerman to tell his story. Questions can lead a witness, the source said.

 

Another officer corrected a witness after she told him that she heard the teen cry for help.

 

The officer told the witness, a long-time teacher, it was Zimmerman who cried for help, said the witness. ABC News has spoken to the teacher and she confirmed that the officer corrected her when she said she heard the teenager shout for help.

[cljohnr]

ABC News has spoken to the teacher and she confirmed that the officer corrected her when she said she heard the teenager shout for help.

I'm not comfortable with the idea of news agencies contacting witnesses during a criminal investigation. It's especially ironic when a few lines earlier they mention questions leading a witness.

[orangecrush]

ABC News has spoken to the teacher and she confirmed that the officer corrected her when she said she heard the teenager shout for help.

I'm not comfortable with the idea of news agencies contacting witnesses during a criminal investigation. It's especially ironic when a few lines earlier they mention questions leading a witness.

 

I am less comfortable with an officer telling a witness what she heard or saw. If she said she saw an alien do it, he should have written that down and kept his mouth shut.

 

I think the news will be all over witnesses, because the police have been less than forthcoming and honest regarding this case.

 

I don't see the irony in ABC news contacting the witness for verification, of what their source told them (unless I am misunderstanding the entire situation and the source didn't tell them what happened during the witness interaction with the police). That is much different than a witness not being allowed to give their version of events, before being questioned.

[Tigz]

Here is one of the statements from the State Attorney's Office:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/13/trayvon-martin-sanford-state-attorney_n_1343223.html

 

 

Just how long the next phase of the case will take is unclear. A spokeswoman for the State Attorney’s Office said she has seen murder, homicide and manslaughter cases take upward of a couple years to be resolved.

 

The office's statement released today said the process is subject to many factors, and that “setting a specific completion date at this time would be mere speculation.” Ultimately, its decisions will be “based on the law and the evidence,” it said.

 

 

Sounds blasé at best.

[orangecrush]

Here is one of the statements from the State Attorney's Office:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/13/trayvon-martin-sanford-state-attorney_n_1343223.html

 

 

Just how long the next phase of the case will take is unclear. A spokeswoman for the State Attorney’s Office said she has seen murder, homicide and manslaughter cases take upward of a couple years to be resolved.

 

The office's statement released today said the process is subject to many factors, and that “setting a specific completion date at this time would be mere speculation.” Ultimately, its decisions will be “based on the law and the evidence,” it said.

 

 

Sounds blasé at best.

 

 

I don't know what more they can say. I want their decisions to based on the law and the evidence.

 

 

Did you notice the mention of homicide and manslaughter? Why bring up those two things, if that isn't what they are looking at behind the scenes?

 

 

With hearings and trial it does take a while for homicide and manslaughter cases to resolved.

[sirrowan]

ABC News has spoken to the teacher and she confirmed that the officer corrected her when she said she heard the teenager shout for help.

I'm not comfortable with the idea of news agencies contacting witnesses during a criminal investigation. It's especially ironic when a few lines earlier they mention questions leading a witness.

 

I am less comfortable with an officer telling a witness what she heard or saw. If she said she saw an alien do it, he should have written that down and kept his mouth shut.

 

I think the news will be all over witnesses, because the police have been less than forthcoming and honest regarding this case.

 

I don't see the irony in ABC news contacting the witness for verification, of what their source told them (unless I am misunderstanding the entire situation and the source didn't tell them what happened during the witness interaction with the police). That is much different than a witness not being allowed to give their version of events, before being questioned.

Very common here where I live. It's what lead to my assault conviction (*I* was assaulted but *I* was convicted!). This is what also lead to the person who I supposedly assaulted getting away with her son drowning in her pool a couple of years ago. I had a talk with a judge about it and he said and I quote, "that mouse got away with murder."

 

This guy will get away with it in my opinion. They have already screwed things up so much!!!!!!

[Tigz]

Here is one of the statements from the State Attorney's Office:

http://www.huffingto..._n_1343223.html

 

 

Just how long the next phase of the case will take is unclear. A spokeswoman for the State Attorney's Office said she has seen murder, homicide and manslaughter cases take upward of a couple years to be resolved.

 

The office's statement released today said the process is subject to many factors, and that "setting a specific completion date at this time would be mere speculation." Ultimately, its decisions will be "based on the law and the evidence," it said.

 

 

Sounds blasé at best.

 

 

I don't know what more they can say. I want their decisions to based on the law and the evidence.

 

 

Did you notice the mention of homicide and manslaughter? Why bring up those two things, if that isn't what they are looking at behind the scenes?

 

 

With hearings and trial it does take a while for homicide and manslaughter cases to resolved.

 

I don't know...to me it sounds like they intend on shelving it unless the heat is turned way up.

This isn't what it says....but stating first thing that this could take years, it sounds to me like they are making excuses from the get-go so that they can shelve it and come back later and say..."well we told you it could take years".

 

And this whole "self defense" argument? I don't know what laws they have down in Seminole County, but they sure are different than the ones in Duval (Jacksonville). I can just see someone instigating a bar fight, then shooting the guy when you start losing and try calling it "self-defense"

 

Yeah, that will fly......NOT.

 

Different location (on the street in a subdivision), but essentially you are dealing with the same type of homicide.

Now if there were 3 or 4 guys with baseball bats or tire irons, that would be different....even if you did start it.

However, they are probably right...... I am sure that Trayvon was some sort of Ninja and could use Skittles and ice tea as deadly weapons.

[orangecrush]

http://www.wftv.com/news/news/witness-sanford-police-blew-us-teen-slaying/nLSqk/

 

 

WFTV reporter Daralene Jones spoke with a woman who heard a Sanford vigilante shoot a 17-year-old boy as he was walking home from a convenience store with a bag of candy.

 

The shooter, George Zimmerman, claimed self-defense in the killing, Sanford police said.

 

They said there was not enough evidence to arrest Zimmerman, fueling outrage around Central Florida and the nation.

 

 

However, witness Mary Cutcher said she knew the truth. Cutcher said police only took a two or three sentence statement from her, but it took about 30 minutes to tell WFTV the story.

 

 

"The cries stopped as soon as the gun went off, so I know it was the little boy," Cutcher said.

 

Cutcher said a cry for help got her attention on the day Trayvon Martin was shot and killed in her backyard by Zimmerman, who was a neighborhood vigilante.

 

Cutcher said that until now, she ignored repeated attempts by national and local media to share what she saw, partially out of fear.

 

"We said, 'Is everything OK? And he just looked at us. Selma [another witness] asked him again, 'What's up, what's going on, everything OK? And he just said, 'Call the police,' kind of nonchalantly, kind of like, 'Leave me alone,'" Cutcher said.

 

According to a partial police report, Cutcher is one of six witnesses that Sanford police took a statement from.

 

Cutcher said it was short, and police never questioned her in detail until after she repeatedly reached out to them.

 

"Blew us off, and I called him back again and I said, "I know this was not self-defense. There was no punching, no hitting going on at the time, no wrestling,'" Cutcher said.

 

Cutcher said she believes whatever confrontation there was, it ended before they got to her backyard.

 

She also said she believes Zimmerman continued to chase Martin as he tried to get home.

 

 

 

 

 

Sanford police pointed to a state statute for not making an immediate rest, and they sent WFTV a copy of the law entitled, "Justifiable Use of Force."

 

However, WFTV legal analyst Bill Sheaffer reviewed the statute and said that if Zimmerman was told by 911 to not confront Martin and did anyway, the statute is not on his side.

 

"The use of deadly force in this case was unlawful and a valid arrest could have been made," Sheaffer said.

 

Sheaffer also said that ultimately an arrest could be, and likely should be made, and then the state would decide if the charges stick.

 

"Under the facts, it is above the discretion for Sanford not to affect on arrest and then send it to the State Attorney's Office," said Sheaffer.

[orangecrush]

WFTV also learned that Zimmerman has been the victim of violence at least twice in the past.

 

He was working security for a party at an Altamonte Springs home in 2005 and residents said someone broke his jaw when he tried to break up a fight.

 

That same year, he was robbed at gunpoint at a 7-Eleven after eating dinner at a nearby Chili's restaurant.

[Snork Maiden]

It's cool that it's gonna take them a couple years to solve it, but I don't see why the guy isn't in jail during this time. May be if he was in jail, they'd be motivated to move faster..

[Echo_X]

WFTV also learned that Zimmerman has been the victim of violence at least twice in the past.

 

He was working security for a party at an Altamonte Springs home in 2005 and residents said someone broke his jaw when he tried to break up a fight.

 

That same year, he was robbed at gunpoint at a 7-Eleven after eating dinner at a nearby Chili's restaurant.

 

I have been careful to keep my mouth shut thus far but...but.. I believe I have commented in the past about the dangers of putting guns in the hands of people with "never again" mentalities.

 

Putting all other issues aside. If this guy who, clearly, was unfit to carry a weapon, had not been armed, he probably would have kept his butt in the car and none of this would have even been an issue.

 

<And just to try to defuse things, I'm not saying no one should be aloud to carry in public. I am saying that situations like this demonstrate that it is a responsibility that not everyone should really be trusted with. People who may go out looking for a fight, for instance, when they should have just let the police handle it..>

[orangecrush]

Trayvon Martin would be alive if Neighborhood Watch rules followed

 

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/os-trayvon-martin-beth-kassab-031512-20120314,0,3758389.column

 

We don't know everything that happened in the 13 minutes that passed between the time Zimmerman, 28, called police and a paramedic pronounced 17-year-old Trayvon Martin dead.

 

But this much isn't in dispute: Zimmerman was armed. He was alone. And while waiting for police, he somehow got into a fight with the person he thought suspicious.

 

 

All three of those actions are strongly discouraged by the National Sheriffs' Association, which oversees about 20,000 Neighborhood Watch programs.

 

There are practical reasons for those rules.

 

And this absolutely heart-wrenching one: A family of a teenager is now coping with a death that probably could have been avoided.

 

"There is no reason in the world to carry a gun for Neighborhood Watch," said Chris Tutko, a retired police chief who now directs Neighborhood Watch for the sheriffs' association. "It gets people more into trouble than out of it."

 

A manual published by the association for its "USAonWatch" program makes that very clear.

 

"It should be emphasized to members that they do not possess police powers and they shall not carry weapons or pursue vehicles," the manual states. "Members should never confront suspicious persons who could be armed and dangerous."

 

Zimmerman is reportedly the self-appointed leader for the group at his complex of town homes. A sign at the gated entrance warns it is surveilled by Neighborhood Watch, and says, "We report all suspicious persons and activities to the Sanford Police Department."

 

That's a prudent step for any neighborhood. In fact, Neighborhood Watches are popular in Central Florida. In Orlando alone, there are 905 block captains listed with Orlando police.

 

Some groups are highly organized and walk their neighborhoods in scheduled patrols. More often, though, neighbors just get acquainted with one another, exchange phone numbers and learn to report anything out of the ordinary that they notice as they move through life's predictable moments: taking out the garbage, walking the dog or getting the mail.

 

Even the basis for Zimmerman's initial phone call is questionable.

 

Here's why: The sheriffs' association manual lists the type of suspicious activity that should be reported to police. Among the examples: "Someone peering into car windows" and "broken doors or windows."

 

[Fataliya]

Wait wait wait.

 

Neighborhood watch guy acted in self defense? So his life was threatened, yet he was able talk to the dispatcher AND shoot the kid?

 

Bullcrap.

[orangecrush]

This case gets worse every day.

 

I would not be surprised if someone (the chief) ended up resigning over this.

[blackberry74]

I still don't see how you can claim self defense against an unarmed person (well, he was armed with Skittles and an iced tea ) that you outweigh by 100 pounds or more...especially when you're the one that initiated the conflict. Shenanigans, shadiness, and tomfoolery.

[orangecrush]

I still don't see how you can claim self defense against an unarmed person (well, he was armed with Skittles and an iced tea ) that you outweigh by 100 pounds or more...especially when you're the one that initiated the conflict. Shenanigans, shadiness, and tomfoolery.

 

 

Due to the laws in Florida, it is possible.

 

 

 

I think that more will eventually come out. Not just the 911 tapes, but witnesses also. I think that people who saw something and didn't want to get involved at first, may come forward.

[blackberry74]

Is it possible even when you initiated the conflict? That's really where I'm stuck. Well, other places too - but that's the one that comes to mind first.