Unarmed boy shot and killed by neighborhood watch captain...

[cinderella]

LOL at some of the comments in this thread. Keep it up, I need something to laught at tonight while working. Some of the posters here seem to get it, while others don't. But I won't name any names.

 

One question though, how are you suppose to "observe and report" if you can only see certain areas from your vehicle?

 

 

Zimmerman observed Trayvon and reported him. That is pretty simple to understand. There is no need to leave a vehicle to do those things. Call the cops and let them do their job.

 

That. Call the cops and let them do their job.

 

On a high-level view, this statement is not such an absolute for me.

 

Man stomps toddler to death in front of bunch of witnesses in California in 2008, yeah...."they called the cops and let them do their job." By the time cops showed up, baby was beaten to death.

http://www.babble.com/CS/blogs/strollerderby/archive/2008/06/18/update-to.aspx

 

Or how about this, girl at high school is gang-raped for two hours...yeah, again, eventually, someonce "called the cops and let them do their jobs."

 

http://current.com/community/91304566_15-year-old-girl-gang-raped-while-onlookers-do-nothing.htm

 

Or how about this recent story, army soldier jumped brutally beaten by a group of men in Florida, I guess eventually after the guy videotaping the horrific crime had enough, he/she "called the cops and let them do their jobs."

 

http://www.wtsp.com/news/topstories/article/255240/250/VIDEO-US-Army-soldier-brutally-beaten-in-South-Tampa-

 

I've read posts in news forums describing the onlookers as every nasty word, from cowards, scumbags for watching, to complete disgust at how a person could simply stand by, "call the cops" and let a baby be beaten to death or a girl repeatedly raped or an army soldier visciously attacked.

 

I gotta admit, it is saddening to contemplate onlookers sitting back and watching the above. As far as sitting back and watching, as some have said, the finger could be pointed right at the onlookers of these crimes stating, "hey, look at those fata$$ cowards watching the baby being beaten to death on their cells calling the cops!"

 

I don't hate a person that is a neighborhood watch captain or for that matter made an attemp to "observe and report" what he believed was a stranger in a neighborhood that had various burglaries. There is no evidence he attacked Trayvon, if anything, evidence suggests he was the one the sustained a physical attack. He may very well have retreated after the civilian dispatcher suggested he do so. We don't know.

 

For being a neighborhood watchman calling the police and trying to detail the whereabout of a stranger, albeit innocent, he deserves to be beat? I don't agree with that. Yes, Zimmerman may very well be overzealous, if not at times intrusive.

 

I know a lot posters say regarding the beating of Z, well, that is what he gets for not minding his own business! or he should of sat his fat a$$ in his truck, or he should of sat back and STFU. The anithesis of Zimmerman, is not a person I'd want around either. An apathetic person, that will never get involved, never risk anything, not their problem, mind your own business mentality, go along with others and watch a baby get stomped to death, a girl gang raped, etc. etc. is more repulsive, to me.

Edited May 18, 2012 by cinderella

[Tigz]

Cinderella, none of those apply here. The boy was just walking down the street. He wasn't beating or raping anyone.....just walking.

[sirrowan]

LOL at some of the comments in this thread. Keep it up, I need something to laught at tonight while working. Some of the posters here seem to get it, while others don't. But I won't name any names.

 

One question though, how are you suppose to "observe and report" if you can only see certain areas from your vehicle?

 

 

Zimmerman observed Trayvon and reported him. That is pretty simple to understand. There is no need to leave a vehicle to do those things. Call the cops and let them do their job.

 

That. Call the cops and let them do their job.

 

On a high-level view, this statement is not such an absolute for me.

 

Man stomps toddler to death in front of bunch of witnesses in California in 2008, yeah...."they called the cops and let them do their job." By the time cops showed up, baby was beaten to death.

http://www.babble.com/CS/blogs/strollerderby/archive/2008/06/18/update-to.aspx

 

Or how about this, girl at high school is gang-raped for two hours...yeah, again, eventually, someonce "called the cops and let them do their jobs."

 

http://current.com/community/91304566_15-year-old-girl-gang-raped-while-onlookers-do-nothing.htm

 

Or how about this recent story, army soldier jumped brutally beaten by a group of men in Florida, I guess eventually after the guy videotaping the horrific crime had enough, he/she "called the cops and let them do their jobs."

 

http://www.wtsp.com/news/topstories/article/255240/250/VIDEO-US-Army-soldier-brutally-beaten-in-South-Tampa-

 

I've read posts in news forums describing the onlookers as every nasty word, from cowards, scumbags for watching, to complete disgust at how a person could simply stand by, "call the cops" and let a baby be beaten to death or a girl repeatedly raped or an army soldier visciously attacked.

 

I gotta admit, it is saddening to contemplate onlookers sitting back and watching the above. As far as sitting back and watching, as some have said, the finger could be pointed right at the onlookers of these crimes stating, "hey, look at those fata$$ cowards watching the baby being beaten to death on their cells calling the cops!"

 

I don't hate a person that is a neighborhood watch captain or for that matter made an attemp to "observe and report" what he believed was a stranger in a neighborhood that had various burglaries. There is no evidence he attacked Trayvon, if anything, evidence suggests he was the one the sustained a physical attack. He may very well have retreated after the civilian dispatcher suggested he do so. We don't know.

 

For being a neighborhood watchman calling the police and trying to detail the whereabout of a stranger, albeit innocent, he deserves to be beat? I don't agree with that. Yes, Zimmerman may very well be overzealous, if not at times intrusive.

 

I know a lot posters say regarding the beating of Z, well, that is what he gets for not minding his own business! or he should of sat his fat a$$ in his truck, or he should of sat back and STFU. The anithesis of Zimmerman, is not a person I'd want around either. An apathetic person, that will never get involved, never risk anything, not their problem, mind your own business mentality, go along with others and watch a baby get stomped to death, a girl gang raped, etc. etc. is more repulsive, to me.

 

You are comparing apples to oranges with your stories. T wasn't stomping a toddler to death. T wasn't gang raping a girl. T wasn't "jumping" or brutally beating a soldier. He was walking home from the store.

[BlackWater]

Cinderella, none of those apply here. The boy was just walking down the street. He wasn't beating or raping anyone.....just walking.

 

And yet we arrest people who have broke into or attempted to break into houses and all they were doing was just walking down the street. Z didn't know what this person was doing.

[sirrowan]

What I just don't get is how, while Z was getting his head pounded into the ground and supposedly T was (well I assume-I know I know...)on top of him, and then Z somehow, instead of protecting his head, gets to his gun, takes the safety off, and then shoots T in the chest-while his head is allegedly getting pounded into the ground. Mkay. I just don't believe this for a minute.

 

Z expected a confrontation. His gun was ready. That's my take on it. Yep that's an opinion/observation. It's America and I'm entitled to one.

 

T should be alive and back in school,maybe smoking pot, eating skittles, drinking iced tea from a can, and flipping people off. But he's not. He's dead. Because he was shot in the chest after being followed by Z.

[BlackWater]

What I just don't get is how, while Z was getting his head pounded into the ground and supposedly T was (well I assume-I know I know...)on top of him, and then Z somehow, instead of protecting his head, gets to his gun, takes the safety off, and then shoots T in the chest-while his head is allegedly getting pounded into the ground. Mkay. I just don't believe this for a minute.

 

Z expected a confrontation. His gun was ready. That's my take on it. Yep that's an opinion/observation. It's America and I'm entitled to one.

 

T should be alive and back in school,maybe smoking pot, eating skittles, drinking iced tea from a can, and flipping people off. But he's not. He's dead. Because he was shot in the chest after being followed by Z.

 

Don't know much about guns do you?

[hegemony]

just curious, for those who think GZ is being wronged, do you think he is at all responsible for the situation that led to the homicide? Should he have done something different? Or is he completely without responsibility here?

[cinderella]

Cinderella, none of those apply here. The boy was just walking down the street. He wasn't beating or raping anyone.....just walking.

 

And yet we arrest people who have broke into or attempted to break into houses and all they were doing was just walking down the street. Z didn't know what this person was doing.

 

Exactly. He could not have known what Trayvon was doing or that he was a temporary resident returning to his father's house.

 

Tigz, I agree, none of the scenarious I gave are what actually happened. However, there is a sentiment among some that is "mind your business", "he got what he deserved", "sit back and don't get involved." Well, the above situations are when people did sit back and mind their own business.

 

I am not going to condemn somebody for being a neighborhood watch captain and attempting to relay the location of a stranger. He could not have known the intent of a stranger walking down the street.

[Repairerer]

Cinderella, none of those apply here. The boy was just walking down the street. He wasn't beating or raping anyone.....just walking.

 

And yet we arrest people who have broke into or attempted to break into houses and all they were doing was just walking down the street. Z didn't know what this person was doing.

 

Exactly. He could not have known what Trayvon was doing or that he was a temporary resident returning to his father's house.

 

Tigz, I agree, none of the scenarious I gave are what actually happened. However, there is a sentiment among some that is "mind your business", "he got what he deserved", "sit back and don't get involved." Well, the above situations are when people did sit back and mind their own business.

 

I am not going to condemn somebody for being a neighborhood watch captain and attempting to relay the location of a stranger. He could not have known the intent of a stranger walking down the street.

 

What business is it of anyone else's what house someone lives in when they are walking down a community street?

 

No one knows the intent of a stranger walking down the street. Somehow, I managed to stay alive myself while not shooting anyone after encountering several of these such "people walking down the street" each and every day.

 

They can indeed be frightening with their coffee and bags of Skittles, but have I somehow shirked my due diligence in failing to hunt them down?

[BlackWater]

 

What business is it of anyone else's what house someone lives in when they are walking down a community street?

 

No one knows the intent of a stranger walking down the street. Somehow, I managed to stay alive myself while not shooting anyone after encountering several of these such "people walking down the street" each and every day.

 

They can indeed be frightening with their coffee and bags of Skittles, but have I somehow shirked my due diligence in failing to hunt them down?

 

That's the point of a community watch. You make it everyone's business. Especially in a gated community.

[Repairerer]

Please remind me to never move to a gated community. I wouldn't like having my guests shot. Where I live, everyone is allowed to carry tea down the street.

 

I am a member of a neighborhood watch. We do what I thought all neigborhood watches did. Inform each other when we go on vacation, and keep an eye out of the window to make sure no one unauthorized tries to fool with our house. If so, call cops. That's it.

[road2freedom]

What I just don't get is how, while Z was getting his head pounded into the ground and supposedly T was (well I assume-I know I know...)on top of him, and then Z somehow, instead of protecting his head, gets to his gun, takes the safety off, and then shoots T in the chest-while his head is allegedly getting pounded into the ground. Mkay. I just don't believe this for a minute.

 

Z expected a confrontation. His gun was ready. That's my take on it. Yep that's an opinion/observation. It's America and I'm entitled to one.

 

T should be alive and back in school,maybe smoking pot, eating skittles, drinking iced tea from a can, and flipping people off. But he's not. He's dead. Because he was shot in the chest after being followed by Z.

 

The gun GZ carried is small and doesn't have a manual safety. I actually carried the same gun when I first got my permit but later swapped it out for a Glock 26, and then eventually a Kimber Ultra Carry (I'm partial to .45). Pulling a weapon only takes a split second, especially if you are a seasoned carrier. That particular gun is simply a point and shoot.

 

If he approached TM with his weapon drawn and no ones life in danger, then that would be wrong. But doubting someone reacting while in a fight is a little humorous. We aren't possums.

Edited May 18, 2012 by road2freedom

[cljohnr]

just curious, for those who think GZ is being wronged, do you think he is at all responsible for the situation that led to the homicide? Should he have done something different? Or is he completely without responsibility here?

I don't think anyone could argue that if Zimmerman had never gotten out of his vehicle, none of the subsequent events would have mattered. But, I don't think that has much relevance on the legal case. I believe Zimmerman successfully meets two of the three prongs of the stand your ground defense. He had a legal right to be on the street in the neighborhood, and he was getting the snot beat out of him. The only real issue, in my mind, is who started the fight. Zimmerman claims he quit trying to follow after the dispatcher told him he didn't need to, and that Martin came back and attacked him. If that's true, the shooting is justifiable under the law. If he caught Martin, and laid hands on him or used racial slurs/threats/profanity (the courts recognize "fighting words"), then he's not protected under the law. That's it, and we don't really know either way at this point. As it stands right now, I doubt they'll get a second degree murder conviction.

[NeverQuietHere]

Conceal and carry laws... where is the gun allowed to be on a person? It can't be in plain sight, right?

 

I have recently heard, too, that GZ's texts and cell phone messages AFTER the shooting will be allowed in court. Anyone else hear that?

 

ETA: Also, does anyone know WHERE GZ's truck was parked when the shooting occurred?

Edited May 18, 2012 by NeverQuietHere

[road2freedom]

Conceal and carry laws... where is the gun allowed to be on a person? It can't be in plain sight, right?

 

I have recently heard, too, that GZ's texts and cell phone messages AFTER the shooting will be allowed in court. Anyone else hear that?

 

ETA: Also, does anyone know WHERE GZ's truck was parked when the shooting occurred?

 

Conceal carry laws basically determine who can carry a concealed weapon, what qualifies as a weapon, where you can carry, and under what circumstances they can use that weapon (varies by state, Florida is mainly to prevent a forcible felony or to protect your own life or the life of another from serious injury or death, paraphrasing and simplifying of course). This is why most instructors will tell you not to pull your weapon unless you intend to shoot and kill.. you should consider if the situation justifies deadly force before you pull. Brandishing a weapon and using it for leverage is a big no-no.

 

Stand your ground law expands when and where you can use deadly force, basically removing the duty to retreat if you are attacked.

 

In plain sight would depend on the state's open carry laws, which most states do not allow (off topic - I was surprised to see that Texas is not open carry. I had always assumed it was.). Random info - Florida law was recently amended to prevent an accidental display from being illegal (say you are carrying IWB and your shirt flips up when you bend over to pick something up)... I'm sure there will be some interesting challenges for that law in the future as well.

 

I don't know about the other two questions but do wonder how/if it would pertain to the case.

[blackberry74]

Here's a map:

 

 

Here's another:

 

Edited May 18, 2012 by blackberry74

[NeverQuietHere]

Conceal and carry laws... where is the gun allowed to be on a person? It can't be in plain sight, right?

 

I have recently heard, too, that GZ's texts and cell phone messages AFTER the shooting will be allowed in court. Anyone else hear that?

 

ETA: Also, does anyone know WHERE GZ's truck was parked when the shooting occurred?

 

Conceal carry laws basically determine who can carry a concealed weapon, what qualifies as a weapon, where you can carry, and under what circumstances they can use that weapon (varies by state, Florida is mainly to prevent a forcible felony or to protect your own life or the life of another from serious injury or death, paraphrasing and simplifying of course). This is why most instructors will tell you not to pull your weapon unless you intend to shoot and kill.. you should consider if the situation justifies deadly force before you pull. Brandishing a weapon and using it for leverage is a big no-no.

 

Stand your ground law expands when and where you can use deadly force, basically removing the duty to retreat if you are attacked.

 

In plain sight would depend on the state's open carry laws, which most states do not allow (off topic - I was surprised to see that Texas is not open carry. I had always assumed it was.). Random info - Florida law was recently amended to prevent an accidental display from being illegal (say you are carrying IWB and your shirt flips up when you bend over to pick something up)... I'm sure there will be some interesting challenges for that law in the future as well.

 

I don't know about the other two questions but do wonder how/if it would pertain to the case.

 

I know what conceal and carry means. I married into a family of gun dealers. My husband is not available at the moment for me to ask him WHERE a concealed weapon is allowed to be on a person's body. What is concealed? In a waistband? Behind your back in your waistband? in a holster on your hip?

BB, I found an AWESOME website while I was googling. I think this guy who did this website has done his homework...thank you for the maps! I think it shows A LOT. Why would TM have "circled back" to GZ's truck? If he had, why wasn't the altercation closer to the truck? He was clearly headed in the direction of his house.

 

I also watched a video or 2 where that "wonderful friend" of GZ's, Frank, basically says that the 8 break ins that had happened in their neighborhood were done by young black males so he could see how GZ would be suspicious of TM. I am going to keep my mouth shut about Frank.

Edited May 18, 2012 by NeverQuietHere

[road2freedom]

^ Interesting graphic. I imagine those arrows are just for visual reference and aren't step by step tracking of TM. He wasn't wearing a monitoring device was he? I would be interested to know the actual path though.

 

As far as where you can carry on you, anywhere so long as its not visible. Even a belt holster is okay as long as you are wearing something that covers it from plain view. I believe it was mentioned that GZ was carrying IWB. The Keltec PF9 is a small frame polymer gun, one of the lightest available.

[baby duck]

Conceal and carry laws... where is the gun allowed to be on a person? It can't be in plain sight, right?

 

I have recently heard, too, that GZ's texts and cell phone messages AFTER the shooting will be allowed in court. Anyone else hear that?

 

ETA: Also, does anyone know WHERE GZ's truck was parked when the shooting occurred?

 

Conceal carry laws basically determine who can carry a concealed weapon, what qualifies as a weapon, where you can carry, and under what circumstances they can use that weapon (varies by state, Florida is mainly to prevent a forcible felony or to protect your own life or the life of another from serious injury or death, paraphrasing and simplifying of course). This is why most instructors will tell you not to pull your weapon unless you intend to shoot and kill.. you should consider if the situation justifies deadly force before you pull. Brandishing a weapon and using it for leverage is a big no-no.

 

Stand your ground law expands when and where you can use deadly force, basically removing the duty to retreat if you are attacked.

 

In plain sight would depend on the state's open carry laws, which most states do not allow (off topic - I was surprised to see that Texas is not open carry. I had always assumed it was.). Random info - Florida law was recently amended to prevent an accidental display from being illegal (say you are carrying IWB and your shirt flips up when you bend over to pick something up)... I'm sure there will be some interesting challenges for that law in the future as well.

 

I don't know about the other two questions but do wonder how/if it would pertain to the case.

 

I know what conceal and carry means. I married into a family of gun dealers. My husband is not available at the moment for me to ask him WHERE a concealed weapon is allowed to be on a person's body. What is concealed? In a waistband? Behind your back in your waistband? in a holster on your hip?

BB, I found an AWESOME website while I was googling. I think this guy who did this website has done his homework...thank you for the maps! I think it shows A LOT. Why would TM have "circled back" to GZ's truck? If he had, why wasn't the altercation closer to the truck? He was clearly headed in the direction of his house.

 

I also watched a video or 2 where that "wonderful friend" of GZ's, Frank, basically says that the 8 break ins that had happened in their neighborhood were done by young black males so he could see how GZ would be suspicious of TM. I am going to keep my mouth shut about Frank.

 

You can have it anywhere you can conceal it. They make holsters for the ankle, thigh, waist band (in or out), bra. You can also purchase specially designed fanny packs, and purses.

[NeverQuietHere]

Conceal and carry laws... where is the gun allowed to be on a person? It can't be in plain sight, right?

 

I have recently heard, too, that GZ's texts and cell phone messages AFTER the shooting will be allowed in court. Anyone else hear that?

 

ETA: Also, does anyone know WHERE GZ's truck was parked when the shooting occurred?

 

Conceal carry laws basically determine who can carry a concealed weapon, what qualifies as a weapon, where you can carry, and under what circumstances they can use that weapon (varies by state, Florida is mainly to prevent a forcible felony or to protect your own life or the life of another from serious injury or death, paraphrasing and simplifying of course). This is why most instructors will tell you not to pull your weapon unless you intend to shoot and kill.. you should consider if the situation justifies deadly force before you pull. Brandishing a weapon and using it for leverage is a big no-no.

 

Stand your ground law expands when and where you can use deadly force, basically removing the duty to retreat if you are attacked.

 

In plain sight would depend on the state's open carry laws, which most states do not allow (off topic - I was surprised to see that Texas is not open carry. I had always assumed it was.). Random info - Florida law was recently amended to prevent an accidental display from being illegal (say you are carrying IWB and your shirt flips up when you bend over to pick something up)... I'm sure there will be some interesting challenges for that law in the future as well.

 

I don't know about the other two questions but do wonder how/if it would pertain to the case.

 

I know what conceal and carry means. I married into a family of gun dealers. My husband is not available at the moment for me to ask him WHERE a concealed weapon is allowed to be on a person's body. What is concealed? In a waistband? Behind your back in your waistband? in a holster on your hip?

BB, I found an AWESOME website while I was googling. I think this guy who did this website has done his homework...thank you for the maps! I think it shows A LOT. Why would TM have "circled back" to GZ's truck? If he had, why wasn't the altercation closer to the truck? He was clearly headed in the direction of his house.

 

I also watched a video or 2 where that "wonderful friend" of GZ's, Frank, basically says that the 8 break ins that had happened in their neighborhood were done by young black males so he could see how GZ would be suspicious of TM. I am going to keep my mouth shut about Frank.

 

You can have it anywhere you can conceal it. They make holsters for the ankle, thigh, waist band (in or out), bra. You can also purchase specially designed fanny packs, and purses.

 

That is what I was wondering. From what I recall, GZ was saying that TM was on top of him and reached for the gun, so I am guessing he had it on his hip. NOT that I believe too much of what GZ has said, because he has clearly lied under oath already.

[road2freedom]

You can have it anywhere you can conceal it. They make holsters for the ankle, thigh, waist band (in or out), bra. You can also purchase specially designed fanny packs, and purses.

 

That is what I was wondering. From what I recall, GZ was saying that TM was on top of him and reached for the gun, so I am guessing he had it on his hip. NOT that I believe too much of what GZ has said, because he has clearly lied under oath already.

 

Please do some more reading before you blindly start accusing people of lying. He had an IWB (inside the waistband) holster. If your shirt gets pushed up, say if you were on your back on the ground, it could easily become visible. Do you need some picture samples?

[road2freedom]

Here's the actual gun and IWB right handed holster.

 

[NeverQuietHere]

You can have it anywhere you can conceal it. They make holsters for the ankle, thigh, waist band (in or out), bra. You can also purchase specially designed fanny packs, and purses.

 

That is what I was wondering. From what I recall, GZ was saying that TM was on top of him and reached for the gun, so I am guessing he had it on his hip. NOT that I believe too much of what GZ has said, because he has clearly lied under oath already.

 

Please do some more reading before you blindly start accusing people of lying. He had an IWB (inside the waistband) holster. If your shirt gets pushed up, say if you were on your back on the ground, it could easily become visible. Do you need some picture samples?

 

WTF? I am not blindly accusing people of lying. And NO I don't need effing picture samples.

 

If you want to know what I was referring to as far as him lying, it was the fact that he said on the 911 call that he felt that TM was a teen. On the stand he said, oh I thought he was a couple years younger than me. I didn't know he was a teen.

 

When GZ "claimed" that TM reached for his gun, I was wondering if it was on his hip or where it was located in order for TM to supposedly reach for it. (which is why I was asking about where you can put "concealed weapons" on your body)

 

Edited May 18, 2012 by NeverQuietHere

[road2freedom]

Really, that's what you got? That he said "late teen" at first on a 911 call when he was some distance away and then use the phrase "a little bit younger" a month or so later after the incident?

[NeverQuietHere]

Really, that's what you got? That he said "late teen" at first on a 911 call when he was some distance away and then use the phrase "a little bit younger" a month or so later after the incident?

 

No. That isn't all I have. Is that the biggest gun you own?

 

Oh wait, I see you own 2 others.

Edited May 18, 2012 by NeverQuietHere