hegemony's $100 bill strategy for dealing with subprime merchants

[radi8]

(make it up other ways, perhaps raising menu prices).

 

 

Wouldn't that essentially be a surcharge on those unable to qualify for a card, for the benefit of those who can?

[frank22]

first test happened yesterday. restaurant had $12 min sign. my bill was $8.96. when I handed my visa the owner said $12 min. I said okay I'll pay with cash...handing him a $100 bill. He said, no credit is okay.

 

so in this instance cash was more expensive for the merchant than credit.

 

Seriously this is ridiculous.

 

What were to happen if say.... they are displaying the credit card logos on the window.

 

You dine and they bring check. You give them the card ignoring the minimum. When they tell you that there is a minimum, then tell them that is the only way you can pay since you have no cash. Will they call the police? Make you wash dishes? I'll test it that way next time.

 

I am betting this comes up very rarely, one thing is the cost of most restaurants is going to be more than $10. Making sure you can accommodate the payment method is part of what people should do, and most are attentive enough to know about payment policies. If you consider it an issue you should know to check the policy. It is also the restaurant's responsibility to make sure patrons are aware of the policies. If it comes up, I am sure most restaurants will let the card go through, and ask you the next time to please use cash. Pretty much what happened here. Even at it's worst, it wouldn't be anything more than a small problem, for most reasonable people.

 

On here you can paint a picture of it being a major problem, but most people are aware of merchant preferences and know to check. Expecting not follow the known payment policies to "test it" in the manner you are suggesting is rude, and technically could be considered illegal.

 

(make it up other ways, perhaps raising menu prices)

 

You are advocating the cost of your convenience being transferred to cash paying customers. I can see where you would like it, but I can't see where you feel you should be able to virtually demand it. Trying to keep prices as low as possible for cash customers(and even CC users using the card above the minimums) is a valid business policy. Disagreeing is fine, but your best recourse is just not going there.

[Guest Sprightly]

first test happened yesterday. restaurant had $12 min sign. my bill was $8.96. when I handed my visa the owner said $12 min. I said okay I'll pay with cash...handing him a $100 bill. He said, no credit is okay.

 

so in this instance cash was more expensive for the merchant than credit.

 

Seriously this is ridiculous.

 

What were to happen if say.... they are displaying the credit card logos on the window.

 

You dine and they bring check. You give them the card ignoring the minimum. When they tell you that there is a minimum, then tell them that is the only way you can pay since you have no cash. Will they call the police? Make you wash dishes? I'll test it that way next time.

Minimums are prohibited. There is no need to present a 100 dollar bill. If he wants to be paid, he must accept your credit card. Report him and make sure that sign comes down - 1-800-VISA-911.

[BBQ123]

first test happened yesterday. restaurant had $12 min sign. my bill was $8.96. when I handed my visa the owner said $12 min. I said okay I'll pay with cash...handing him a $100 bill. He said, no credit is okay.

 

so in this instance cash was more expensive for the merchant than credit.

 

I did this once when they had a $5 minimum and I was buying $1.95. The guy asked if I had anything else and I said I had a credit card but he didn't want to take it. LOL.

[hinklesc]

first test happened yesterday. restaurant had $12 min sign. my bill was $8.96. when I handed my visa the owner said $12 min. I said okay I'll pay with cash...handing him a $100 bill. He said, no credit is okay.

 

so in this instance cash was more expensive for the merchant than credit.

 

Seriously this is ridiculous.

 

What were to happen if say.... they are displaying the credit card logos on the window.

 

You dine and they bring check. You give them the card ignoring the minimum. When they tell you that there is a minimum, then tell them that is the only way you can pay since you have no cash. Will they call the police? Make you wash dishes? I'll test it that way next time.

 

I am betting this comes up very rarely, one thing is the cost of most restaurants is going to be more than $10. Making sure you can accommodate the payment method is part of what people should do, and most are attentive enough to know about payment policies. If you consider it an issue you should know to check the policy. It is also the restaurant's responsibility to make sure patrons are aware of the policies. If it comes up, I am sure most restaurants will let the card go through, and ask you the next time to please use cash. Pretty much what happened here. Even at it's worst, it wouldn't be anything more than a small problem, for most reasonable people.

 

On here you can paint a picture of it being a major problem, but most people are aware of merchant preferences and know to check. Expecting not follow the known payment policies to "test it" in the manner you are suggesting is rude, and technically could be considered illegal.

 

(make it up other ways, perhaps raising menu prices)

 

You are advocating the cost of your convenience being transferred to cash paying customers. I can see where you would like it, but I can't see where you feel you should be able to virtually demand it. Trying to keep prices as low as possible for cash customers(and even CC users using the card above the minimums) is a valid business policy. Disagreeing is fine, but your best recourse is just not going there.

 

You are telling me that if I go into a restaurant, and order a $3.00 grilled cheese and a glass of ice water... leaving a $.60 tip for a total of $3.60. Even though they displayed the Visa logo, and that is all I have because I left cash home.... if I am under the minimum $10... this is illegal? Wonder how much jail time I will get or what it will cost me to post bond on the same Visa?

[hinklesc]

(make it up other ways, perhaps raising menu prices).

 

 

Wouldn't that essentially be a surcharge on those unable to qualify for a card, for the benefit of those who can?

 

No, it would be simply raising men prices. Keep them in touch with current costs. There would be no surcharge on anyone, unless you perceive it that way. I have no sympathy because someone does not qualify for a card, and I have to jump through hoops. (fee, minimum purchase, etc). Costs us the same. I order a steak and Joe Cash orders the same steak, we both pay $19.99. He uses a $20 bill and I use my Visa.

[frank22]

first test happened yesterday. restaurant had $12 min sign. my bill was $8.96. when I handed my visa the owner said $12 min. I said okay I'll pay with cash...handing him a $100 bill. He said, no credit is okay.

 

so in this instance cash was more expensive for the merchant than credit.

 

Seriously this is ridiculous.

 

What were to happen if say.... they are displaying the credit card logos on the window.

 

You dine and they bring check. You give them the card ignoring the minimum. When they tell you that there is a minimum, then tell them that is the only way you can pay since you have no cash. Will they call the police? Make you wash dishes? I'll test it that way next time.

 

I am betting this comes up very rarely, one thing is the cost of most restaurants is going to be more than $10. Making sure you can accommodate the payment method is part of what people should do, and most are attentive enough to know about payment policies. If you consider it an issue you should know to check the policy. It is also the restaurant's responsibility to make sure patrons are aware of the policies. If it comes up, I am sure most restaurants will let the card go through, and ask you the next time to please use cash. Pretty much what happened here. Even at it's worst, it wouldn't be anything more than a small problem, for most reasonable people.

 

On here you can paint a picture of it being a major problem, but most people are aware of merchant preferences and know to check. Expecting not follow the known payment policies to "test it" in the manner you are suggesting is rude, and technically could be considered illegal.

 

(make it up other ways, perhaps raising menu prices)

 

You are advocating the cost of your convenience being transferred to cash paying customers. I can see where you would like it, but I can't see where you feel you should be able to virtually demand it. Trying to keep prices as low as possible for cash customers(and even CC users using the card above the minimums) is a valid business policy. Disagreeing is fine, but your best recourse is just not going there.

 

You are telling me that if I go into a restaurant, and order a $3.00 grilled cheese and a glass of ice water... leaving a $.60 tip for a total of $3.60. Even though they displayed the Visa logo, and that is all I have because I left cash home.... if I am under the minimum $10... this is illegal? Wonder how much jail time I will get or what it will cost me to post bond on the same Visa?

 

All I was saying was you should be prepared to pay for the meal in the agreed upon manner, and it is up to you to know the acceptable manner of payment. You exaggerated what I was saying despite my qualifiers. Notice I wrote COULD BE TECHNICALLY CONSIDERED illegal? You took it out of context. That line was not the point of my post, which you ignored.

[hinklesc]

first test happened yesterday. restaurant had $12 min sign. my bill was $8.96. when I handed my visa the owner said $12 min. I said okay I'll pay with cash...handing him a $100 bill. He said, no credit is okay.

 

so in this instance cash was more expensive for the merchant than credit.

 

Seriously this is ridiculous.

 

What were to happen if say.... they are displaying the credit card logos on the window.

 

You dine and they bring check. You give them the card ignoring the minimum. When they tell you that there is a minimum, then tell them that is the only way you can pay since you have no cash. Will they call the police? Make you wash dishes? I'll test it that way next time.

 

I am betting this comes up very rarely, one thing is the cost of most restaurants is going to be more than $10. Making sure you can accommodate the payment method is part of what people should do, and most are attentive enough to know about payment policies. If you consider it an issue you should know to check the policy. It is also the restaurant's responsibility to make sure patrons are aware of the policies. If it comes up, I am sure most restaurants will let the card go through, and ask you the next time to please use cash. Pretty much what happened here. Even at it's worst, it wouldn't be anything more than a small problem, for most reasonable people.

 

On here you can paint a picture of it being a major problem, but most people are aware of merchant preferences and know to check. Expecting not follow the known payment policies to "test it" in the manner you are suggesting is rude, and technically could be considered illegal.

 

(make it up other ways, perhaps raising menu prices)

 

You are advocating the cost of your convenience being transferred to cash paying customers. I can see where you would like it, but I can't see where you feel you should be able to virtually demand it. Trying to keep prices as low as possible for cash customers(and even CC users using the card above the minimums) is a valid business policy. Disagreeing is fine, but your best recourse is just not going there.

 

You are telling me that if I go into a restaurant, and order a $3.00 grilled cheese and a glass of ice water... leaving a $.60 tip for a total of $3.60. Even though they displayed the Visa logo, and that is all I have because I left cash home.... if I am under the minimum $10... this is illegal? Wonder how much jail time I will get or what it will cost me to post bond on the same Visa?

 

All I was saying was you should be prepared to pay for the meal in the agreed upon manner, and it is up to you to know the acceptable manner of payment. You exaggerated what I was saying despite my qualifiers. Notice I wrote COULD BE TECHNICALLY CONSIDERED illegal? You took it out of context. That line was not the point of my post, which you ignored.

 

I feel that if they display the Visa credit card logo and I have a Visa in my pocket, then I am good to go whether the meal comes to $.50 or $50,000. I am being facetious, as I am sure they will just accept the card anyway.

 

If you watch at restaurants, even fast food the majority of transactions are with plastic. Even those that cannot get a credit card use debit cards. I suppose it has to be much more convenient using a debit than carrying cash, especially on a restaurant check where you do not want to be caught short on cash (I have only used my debits on ATM).

[frank22]

first test happened yesterday. restaurant had $12 min sign. my bill was $8.96. when I handed my visa the owner said $12 min. I said okay I'll pay with cash...handing him a $100 bill. He said, no credit is okay.

 

so in this instance cash was more expensive for the merchant than credit.

 

Seriously this is ridiculous.

 

What were to happen if say.... they are displaying the credit card logos on the window.

 

You dine and they bring check. You give them the card ignoring the minimum. When they tell you that there is a minimum, then tell them that is the only way you can pay since you have no cash. Will they call the police? Make you wash dishes? I'll test it that way next time.

 

I am betting this comes up very rarely, one thing is the cost of most restaurants is going to be more than $10. Making sure you can accommodate the payment method is part of what people should do, and most are attentive enough to know about payment policies. If you consider it an issue you should know to check the policy. It is also the restaurant's responsibility to make sure patrons are aware of the policies. If it comes up, I am sure most restaurants will let the card go through, and ask you the next time to please use cash. Pretty much what happened here. Even at it's worst, it wouldn't be anything more than a small problem, for most reasonable people.

 

On here you can paint a picture of it being a major problem, but most people are aware of merchant preferences and know to check. Expecting not follow the known payment policies to "test it" in the manner you are suggesting is rude, and technically could be considered illegal.

 

(make it up other ways, perhaps raising menu prices)

 

You are advocating the cost of your convenience being transferred to cash paying customers. I can see where you would like it, but I can't see where you feel you should be able to virtually demand it. Trying to keep prices as low as possible for cash customers(and even CC users using the card above the minimums) is a valid business policy. Disagreeing is fine, but your best recourse is just not going there.

 

You are telling me that if I go into a restaurant, and order a $3.00 grilled cheese and a glass of ice water... leaving a $.60 tip for a total of $3.60. Even though they displayed the Visa logo, and that is all I have because I left cash home.... if I am under the minimum $10... this is illegal? Wonder how much jail time I will get or what it will cost me to post bond on the same Visa?

 

All I was saying was you should be prepared to pay for the meal in the agreed upon manner, and it is up to you to know the acceptable manner of payment. You exaggerated what I was saying despite my qualifiers. Notice I wrote COULD BE TECHNICALLY CONSIDERED illegal? You took it out of context. That line was not the point of my post, which you ignored.

 

I feel that if they display the Visa credit card logo and I have a Visa in my pocket, then I am good to go whether the meal comes to $.50 or $50,000. I am being facetious, as I am sure they will just accept the card anyway.

 

If you watch at restaurants, even fast food the majority of transactions are with plastic. Even those that cannot get a credit card use debit cards. I suppose it has to be much more convenient using a debit than carrying cash, especially on a restaurant check where you do not want to be caught short on cash (I have only used my debits on ATM).

 

You may feel that and more, but especially when the rule changes it will not be true. Fact. You have to follow the known payment policies. If you don't agree with them, don't go. It is that simple.

[Guest Sprightly]

Minimums are prohibited. Merchants must follow the well-known credit card acceptance policy rule of NO MINIMUMS. It is that simple.

 

Any merchant expecting to not follow the well-known credit card acceptance policy rule of NO MINIMUMS to "test it" in the manner you are suggesting is prohibited, rude, insulting, and technically illegal. Any violating merchant deserves to be fined out of business. Report him and make sure that sign comes down - 1-800-VISA-911.

 

http://www.mastercard.com/us/personal/en/c...violations.html

[Cosmos Human]

Hedge, A local newspaper/card shop/junk food place here in my building in downtown Cleveland has a 10 or 15 dollar minimum charge. I reported this place several weeks ago, and their sign is still posted.

 

So, what gives?

 

Just curious, I'll try the $100.00 bill thingy you did just to see what reactions I get. However many places refuse to accept 50 and 100 dollar bills.

[frank22]

Minimums are prohibited. Merchants must follow the well-known credit card acceptance policy rule of NO MINIMUMS. It is that simple.

 

Any merchant expecting to not follow the well-known credit card acceptance policy rule of NO MINIMUMS to "test it" in the manner you are suggesting is prohibited, rude, insulting, and technically illegal. Any violating merchant deserves to be fined out of business. Report him and make sure that sign comes down - 1-800-VISA-911.

 

http://www.mastercard.com/us/personal/en/c...violations.html

 

A reason that Hedge is doing this is due to the very real possibility that the rules are going to change, and the discussion is based on this change. In this event, the rule will no longer be an issue and we will be forced to rely on the give and take of the marketplace. This give an take works for most other criteria for customer/merchant transactions, such as hours, price, customer service, quality of goods. That is all that will happen. You at that point will be able to make a decision if payment method is one of the criteria you would like to use in YOUR decision. We are discussing the likely future, and you are discussing the now.

Edited July 15, 2010 by frank22

[hegemony]

Minimums are prohibited. Merchants must follow the well-known credit card acceptance policy rule of NO MINIMUMS. It is that simple.

 

Any merchant expecting to not follow the well-known credit card acceptance policy rule of NO MINIMUMS to "test it" in the manner you are suggesting is prohibited, rude, insulting, and technically illegal. Any violating merchant deserves to be fined out of business. Report him and make sure that sign comes down - 1-800-VISA-911.

 

http://www.mastercard.com/us/personal/en/c...violations.html

 

A reason that Hedge is doing this is due to the very real possibility that the rules are going to change, and the discussion is based on this change. In this event, the rule will no longer be an issue and we will be forced to rely on the give and take of the marketplace. This give an take works for most other criteria for customer/merchant transactions, such as hours, price, customer service, quality of goods. That is all that will happen. You at that point will be able to make a decision if payment method is one of the criteria you would like to use in YOUR decision. We are discussing the likely future, and you are discussing the now.

 

the reason I am doing it is because I have a sense of humor.

[frank22]

I feel that if they display the Visa credit card logo and I have a Visa in my pocket, then I am good to go whether the meal comes to $.50 or $50,000. I am being facetious, as I am sure they will just accept the card anyway.

 

If you watch at restaurants, even fast food the majority of transactions are with plastic. Even those that cannot get a credit card use debit cards. I suppose it has to be much more convenient using a debit than carrying cash, especially on a restaurant check where you do not want to be caught short on cash (I have only used my debits on ATM).

 

 

An underlying issue is your example of the extreme maximum and minimum. The system was not designed for these transactions. The problem comes when we try to apply the old fee structure to them. Normally the fee structure would have changed with the change in how the cards are used in modern society, the strong market power of CC industry is why it hasn't. I have already explained the fixed cost aspects of the infrastructure, the variable cost is negligible.

 

I think you need to look two or three steps ahead instead of just one. The more merchants avoid the small fee transaction, the more likely the banks will respond to this change. They really want these transactions, they don't cost more, and they add up. The also allow for higher interest charges. They can and will make them attractive to the merchant, and thus to us. The already have for larger merchants, it will not be a huge sea change to change the fees for the smaller merchant as well. The banks are holding on to the old system because they can, once they can't they will change with the times, and you will benefit. It end up promoting the cashless society.

Edited July 15, 2010 by frank22

[Guest Sprightly]

Hedge, A local newspaper/card shop/junk food place here in my building in downtown Cleveland has a 10 or 15 dollar minimum charge. I reported this place several weeks ago, and their sign is still posted.

 

So, what gives?

 

Just curious, I'll try the $100.00 bill thingy you did just to see what reactions I get. However many places refuse to accept 50 and 100 dollar bills.

Cosmos Human, did you use this form:

 

http://www.mastercard.com/us/personal/en/c...violations.html ?

 

After you clicked "Submit" did your next screen say:

 

"Thank you for writing to MasterCard Worldwide. We are reviewing your inquiry and if a response is needed you'll receive one soon." ?

 

And did you receive a confirmation email which said:

 

"Thank you for submitting a merchant violator report to MasterCard Worldwide. We are reviewing your report and will be contacting the merchant's acquirer to address the situation. Your issue is regarding <<name of merchant here>> in zip code #####" ?

 

If not, your report may not have been submitted and MasterCard may not have been notified.

 

Resubmit the form.

 

Use Internet Explorer instead of Firefox or other browsers.

 

Call in the report as well:

 

MasterCard: 1-800-300-3069

Visa: 1-800-VISA-911

[centex]

I find it funny that Sprightly/Continental/whatever other name s/he elects to use believes that V/MC have people who will instantly jump on a complaint about a sign...yeah, they might get around to it and eventually send a letter, but it is NOT going to be a priority.

[hegemony]

I find it funny that Sprightly/Continental/whatever other name s/he elects to use believes that V/MC have people who will instantly jump on a complaint about a sign...yeah, they might get around to it and eventually send a letter, but it is NOT going to be a priority.

maybe not a priority, but stores I've reported have changed their ways. I am not ascribing that to my actions alone or even at all, but nevertheless they did change.

 

including a major retailer: whole foods.

[green2408]

I find it funny that Sprightly/Continental/whatever other name s/he elects to use believes that V/MC have people who will instantly jump on a complaint about a sign...yeah, they might get around to it and eventually send a letter, but it is NOT going to be a priority.

maybe not a priority, but stores I've reported have changed their ways. I am not ascribing that to my actions alone or even at all, but nevertheless they did change.

 

including a major retailer: whole foods.

 

 

I've found that it takes a while, but eventually the policies you report change.

[Cosmos Human]

Hedge, A local newspaper/card shop/junk food place here in my building in downtown Cleveland has a 10 or 15 dollar minimum charge. I reported this place several weeks ago, and their sign is still posted.

 

So, what gives?

 

Just curious, I'll try the $100.00 bill thingy you did just to see what reactions I get. However many places refuse to accept 50 and 100 dollar bills.

Cosmos Human, did you use this form:

 

http://www.mastercard.com/us/personal/en/c...violations.html ?

 

After you clicked "Submit" did your next screen say:

 

"Thank you for writing to MasterCard Worldwide. We are reviewing your inquiry and if a response is needed you'll receive one soon." ?

 

And did you receive a confirmation email which said:

 

"Thank you for submitting a merchant violator report to MasterCard Worldwide. We are reviewing your report and will be contacting the merchant's acquirer to address the situation. Your issue is regarding <<name of merchant here>> in zip code #####" ?

 

If not, your report may not have been submitted and MasterCard may not have been notified.

 

Resubmit the form.

 

Use Internet Explorer instead of Firefox or other browsers.

 

Call in the report as well:

 

MasterCard: 1-800-300-3069

Visa: 1-800-VISA-911

 

 

YES, and I just submitted it again.

 

Do_Not_Reply@mastercard.com to me

show details 12:18 (1 minute ago)

 

Thank you for submitting a merchant violator report to MasterCard Worldwide. We are reviewing your report and will be contacting the merchant's acquirer to address the situation.

Your issue is regarding Three Brothers located in zipcode 44115.

Please note: MasterCard is not able to provide updates/outcomes of individual violation reports.

Edited July 15, 2010 by Cosmos Human

[BBQ123]

With the rule changes, they still won't be allowed to ask for ID on signed cards.

 

I think any place that says $10 minimum can simply lose my business. If it's a place where I receive service before paying (eg. resturant), then they can take the credit card or not get paid at all.

[centex]

With the rule changes, they still won't be allowed to ask for ID on signed cards.

 

I think any place that says $10 minimum can simply lose my business. If it's a place where I receive service before paying (eg. resturant), then they can take the credit card or not get paid at all.

 

my guess is you change your attitude the first time the cops get called on a Theft of Service charge...I have YET to see a place with a minimum where the signage was not PROMINENTLY displayed either on a door, the register or on the menu (in the case of a full-service restaurant). In other words, advance notice was given...

[frank22]

With the rule changes, they still won't be allowed to ask for ID on signed cards.

 

I think any place that says $10 minimum can simply lose my business. If it's a place where I receive service before paying (eg. resturant), then they can take the credit card or not get paid at all.

 

my guess is you change your attitude the first time the cops get called on a Theft of Service charge...I have YET to see a place with a minimum where the signage was not PROMINENTLY displayed either on a door, the register or on the menu (in the case of a full-service restaurant). In other words, advance notice was given...

 

Yeah, you do have some duty to know what the payment policies are, when this rule goes in to affect you are not going to be able to hang your hat on being caught off guard. If it is posted, turning a blind eye won't get you far. Deciding not to go there is a legitimate response, if you see it posted and don't have cash, ask them about your dilemma. They very well might want your business or want to help you out. I am betting you will get bored with the fight soon enough, but who knows?

Edited July 20, 2010 by frank22

[BBQ123]

With the rule changes, they still won't be allowed to ask for ID on signed cards.

 

I think any place that says $10 minimum can simply lose my business. If it's a place where I receive service before paying (eg. resturant), then they can take the credit card or not get paid at all.

 

my guess is you change your attitude the first time the cops get called on a Theft of Service charge...I have YET to see a place with a minimum where the signage was not PROMINENTLY displayed either on a door, the register or on the menu (in the case of a full-service restaurant). In other words, advance notice was given...

 

They're being offered valid payment and not accepting it.

[hinklesc]

With the rule changes, they still won't be allowed to ask for ID on signed cards.

 

I think any place that says $10 minimum can simply lose my business. If it's a place where I receive service before paying (eg. resturant), then they can take the credit card or not get paid at all.

 

my guess is you change your attitude the first time the cops get called on a Theft of Service charge...I have YET to see a place with a minimum where the signage was not PROMINENTLY displayed either on a door, the register or on the menu (in the case of a full-service restaurant). In other words, advance notice was given...

 

They're being offered valid payment and not accepting it.

 

I agree with you on this. If they are displaying the credit card logos on the door as well, then they accept credit cards. The restaurant owner that calls the police on a $7.00 check when I have a valid payment will get laughed at.

 

Theft of service would be where you scarfed down on steak/shrimp and made a dash for your car when the waitress drops the check.

[radi8]

They're being offered valid payment and not accepting it.

 

No different than insisting they take a check despite a large "no checks" sign. If they stick to their guns, you'll either be making frantic phone calls for someone to run you over some accepted form of payment, or visiting with law enforcement. There is no requirement that a merchant take your card, your check, or your cash, if they have posted notice. There IS a requirement that you pay them.